How Does the Handgun Ammo Used by the FBI Compare to Modern Duty Ammo?

[Tensaw]

So if we put the ammo used by the FBI up against HSTs and Gold Dots in gel testing, how would it stack up with regard to penetration and any other useful metric?

[HCM]

You question doesn't make sense since the FBI uses "modern duty ammo" such as Gold Dots (among others) and the FBI's ammo testing protocols are the generally accepted standard in the ammo industry and among other LE Agencies.

The FBI still issues Gold Dots in .40 and Gold Dot G2 in 9mm though there is a new contract for .40 caliber Critical duty. Prior issued ammo has included Winchester Ranger Bonded and Hydra shok.

HST in .40 is the standard .40 contract ammo for DHS agencies such as ICE, CBP, USBP and the US Coast Guard. It is also well vetted.

If you want test data on those loads per FBI protocols just look at Doc GKR's stickies in the ammunition section.

[Tensaw]

Shiiite..... Yup, that question makes no sense. Let's just say it was a long day yesterday...

The question is, how does current service ammo in 9mm and .40 compare to the handgun ammo used in the 1986 Miami Shootout? So, said another way, if we ran that 1986 ammo through current testing protocol, what kind of results would we get?

I am hoping that the answer will help the ".40 is more than 9" folks in my acquaintance understand why it is okay to "step down" to a 9mm. If we can understand that the ammo used in the incident that ultimately birthed the .40 to start with was inferior to current offerings, perhaps that will penetrate (pun intended) their mindset.

Thank you for your patience.

[Hambo]

If we can understand that the ammo used in the incident that ultimately birthed the .40 to start with was inferior to current offerings, perhaps that will penetrate (pun intended) their mindset.

Or not. If they haven't figured out that Miami was 30 years ago and there has been a shitload of improvement in those years, they probably won't care if you lay out the reasons why.

If you want to beat your head against the wall with them, search DocGKR's ammo threads, and check a thread here about 9BPLE. IIRC Doc posted in that one about old school JHP.

[HCM]

Shiiite..... Yup, that question makes no sense. Let's just say it was a long day yesterday...

The question is, how does current service ammo in 9mm and .40 compare to the handgun ammo used in the 1986 Miami Shootout? So, said another way, if we ran that 1986 ammo through current testing protocol, what kind of results would we get?

I am hoping that the answer will help the ".40 is more than 9" folks in my acquaintance understand why it is okay to "step down" to a 9mm. If we can understand that the ammo used in the incident that ultimately birthed the .40 to start with was inferior to current offerings, perhaps that will penetrate (pun intended) their mindset.

Thank you for your patience.

The short answer is bonded bullets.

Prior to bonded bullets 9mm did ok on people but had issues with adequete penetration and intermediate barriers. Slow bullets would not expand and would over penetrate. Standard velocity bullets like the win 115 silver tip in the Miami shooting did not consistently meet the 12" to 18" penetration range we use as a standard today. Light fast bullets like +P+ would open up reliably but often open up too much, retarding penetration, or they would break up with the core separating from the jacket, the resulting smaller, lighter pieces would also fail to penetrate.

.40 with standard non bonded bullets could be pushed fast enough to expand reliably while still staying in one piece, even through intermediate barriers, allowing enough retained mass for adequate penetration.

Bonded bullets allowed 9mm to be driven fast enough to expand reliably while still keeping the bullet together, which allows it to retain adequete mass to meet the 12" -18" penetration range.

As for your 40> 9 folks:

40 still works but at greater capacity, recoil / time and financial cost. The success of the .40 with non bonded bullets had more to do with the mass of the heavier bullets than the bore diameter.

Technology advances. You used to need to replace tires and do a tune up every 15,000 miles. Now tires last 30 to 60k and tunes ups are every 100k miles.

All this is my layman's understanding. If Doc GKR says anything which contradicts this - go with what Doc GKR says.

[TGS]

The question is, how does current service ammo in 9mm and .40 compare to the handgun ammo used in the 1986 Miami Shootout? So, said another way, if we ran that 1986 ammo through current testing protocol, what kind of results would we get?

Well, that's an easy question. Just google for some gel testing regarding 9BPLE 115gr +p+, Winchester Silvertip, and Super-Vel.

[El Cid]

If memory serves, it was the Miami shootout that led to testing standards and protocols.

As HCM said, if your friends are anti 9mm because of that incident... you likely can't fix them.

[Totem Polar]

If we are doing history, then I would suggest that the SAC-approved 145 grain .357 silvertip would probably be the top performing 80s FBI bullet put against their own modern protocols. We’d have to ask Doc where the currently scarce winnie 145 ST stands in that testing protocol.

I do know that Doc has stated that it was one of the better old-school loads (and, again, I’d love to hear his perspective on this load), and a couple of hairy, hoary HITs guys have noted that it was a good load, IIRC. Certainly seemed to do the trick, assuming that a wheelie is acceptable. Low speed guy that I am, I could roll through the woods with this .357 load and, say, one of the original no-lock "bloodwork" 8-shot N-snubs and not be worried, except that a G19 is just more better.

Carry on.

[blues]

If we are doing history, then I would suggest that the SAC-approved 145 grain .357 silvertip would probably be the top performing 80s FBI bullet put against their own modern protocols. We’d have to ask Doc where the currently scarce winnie 145 ST stands in that testing protocol.

I do know that Doc has stated that it was one of the better old-school loads (and, again, I’d love to hear his perspective on this load), and a couple of hairy, hoary HITs guys have noted that it was a good load, IIRC. Certainly seemed to do the trick, assuming that a wheelie is acceptable. Low speed guy that I am, I could roll through the woods with this .357 load and, say, one of the original no-lock "bloodwork" 8-shot N-snubs and not be worried, except that a G19 is just more better.

Carry on.

This quote by Doc puts some of this topic in the 'nuff said category as far as I'm concerned...

Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

Hence the remaining boxes of old school service ammo I still have on hand from back in the day will be used for training purposes only, and has been for some time now.

[HCM]

If we are doing history, then I would suggest that the SAC-approved 145 grain .357 silvertip would probably be the top performing 80s FBI bullet put against their own modern protocols. We’d have to ask Doc where the currently scarce winnie 145 ST stands in that testing protocol.

I do know that Doc has stated that it was one of the better old-school loads (and, again, I’d love to hear his perspective on this load), and a couple of hairy, hoary HITs guys have noted that it was a good load, IIRC. Certainly seemed to do the trick, assuming that a wheelie is acceptable. Low speed guy that I am, I could roll through the woods with this .357 load and, say, one of the original no-lock "bloodwork" 8-shot N-snubs and not be worried, except that a G19 is just more better.

Carry on.

The 158 grain +p 38 Spl Lead SWC HP which was standard issue worked fine for a handgun round.

The real lesson from Miami was not matter how much of an admin pain in the ass it is, bring your long guns.