How Does the Handgun Ammo Used by the FBI Compare to Modern Duty Ammo?

[Joe in PNG]

Go to any level 1 trauma center that services an inter-city community and talk with the Chief of Staff for the Emergency Department. If I were to take three GSW victims, all with a similar build and all shot in the same location of the torso, one shot with a 9mm, the second with a 40 and the third with a 45. And assume that all three rounds using the same design of bullet, could the Doctor tell the caliber by looking at the wound or the damage? Hint, the answer will be, Nope.

Sadly, the Derp merchants online say the exact opposite thing. Had one dood claim that as part of his training to treat gunshots, you try to ascertain what caliber the person was shot with.
Which makes me wonder what Recon Delta Seal this dude got his "first aid training" from.
Ultimately, they wed themselves to the +4 because ego boost.

[John Hearne]

I see it all the time - kinda did that for a living full time for several years..... While your average officers M4 skills are nothing to write home about, their odds of making a 15 yard headshot or hitting an 8" circle at 25 yards are still much greater with an M4 than with a handgun. ... We run our guys through some drills like the half and half with both the rifle and the pistol to let them see this fir themselves. While the results are not great, they are noticeably better with the rifle than the handgun. ... For those who are not gun people and are only really familiar with their service pistol, the M4 is a much easier jump than the shotgun, particularly pump shotguns.

My observations have been that once they've "warmed up" the hits are definitely easier with a long gun. I've had my folks shoot our pistol course with their rifles, starting at the 25 yard line and working in so they don't know what they're doing, and almost everyone shoots 100%.

Give me four hours and I can get their short range rifle skills tuned up really nicely. They'll be working sight offset, running the safety like it's natural, and delivering quick snap shots. The problem is it might be 20 months since their last short range class when they have to use the rifle.

My problem is that a lot will struggle to get the shotgun into the fight (we require hammer back, safety on carry) and unless you remind them of it, the manual safety and sight offset on the AR are ugly (we require empty chamber, safety on carry of the M-16). The distance of the Miami fight would have likely made sight off-set an issue.

To me, it still comes back to individual skill level and the responsibility of not taking anyone's word that you're good enough - whether it's a pistol, shotgun, rifle, or super soaker.

(Our rifle course is all shot at 50 yards. 30 seconds per stage to fire five rounds - standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, high barricade, and low barricade. Target is a Transtar with a round in the 4 or 5 scored as a hit. No requirements to chamber a round from cruiser carry or to use the safety. Nothing in this prepares you for a Miami style event)

[Jeep]

Our rifle course is all shot at 50 yards. 30 seconds per stage to fire five rounds - standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, high barricade, and low barricade. Target is a Transtar with a round in the 4 or 5 scored as a hit. No requirements to chamber a round from cruiser carry or to use the safety. Nothing in this prepares you for a Miami style event

So here is the tough question. Given that level of training are you better off with them simply using their pistols when the distance gets a bit longer, or is it better to risk that they will fumble with getting a round into the chamber and perhaps thereafter with the safety? (I'm assuming better rifle training is simply not in the picture because training time (and perhaps ammo) is simply too expensive.

[LtDave]

In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. If you think police handgun training is bad, you should see the long gun stuff.

I just had the opportunity to glance at a TX police department’s shotgun and handgun qualification courses of fire. It was a total of 3 rounds from the shotgun at not very far (can’t recall exactly, but it wasn’t much). The handgun qual course maxxed out at 15 yards. All but 5 rounds were fired from 10 yards and in. I thought the times allowed were very generous given the distances involved.

[HCM]

My observations have been that once they've "warmed up" the hits are definitely easier with a long gun. I've had my folks shoot our pistol course with their rifles, starting at the 25 yard line and working in so they don't know what they're doing, and almost everyone shoots 100%.

Give me four hours and I can get their short range rifle skills tuned up really nicely. They'll be working sight offset, running the safety like it's natural, and delivering quick snap shots. The problem is it might be 20 months since their last short range class when they have to use the rifle.

My problem is that a lot will struggle to get the shotgun into the fight (we require hammer back, safety on carry) and unless you remind them of it, the manual safety and sight offset on the AR are ugly (we require empty chamber, safety on carry of the M-16). The distance of the Miami fight would have likely made sight off-set an issue.

To me, it still comes back to individual skill level and the responsibility of not taking anyone's word that you're good enough - whether it's a pistol, shotgun, rifle, or super soaker.

(Our rifle course is all shot at 50 yards. 30 seconds per stage to fire five rounds - standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, high barricade, and low barricade. Target is a Transtar with a round in the 4 or 5 scored as a hit. No requirements to chamber a round from cruiser carry or to use the safety. Nothing in this prepares you for a Miami style event)

Back in the day, our rifle training was similar, which was one of the things which lead me to Pat Rogers. Now things have improved a bit. Our in-service course on the M4 includes things like VTAC 9 hole drills, half and half drills at 20/10/5 yards etc. We also run the same drills with both pistol and rifle to illustrate the difference in "shootability."

Our rifle course:

100 yards - start standing, loaded, Safety on. - 5 rounds kneeling, 5 rounds prone in 60 seconds.
50 yards - 5 rounds standing, 5 rounds kneeling, 5 rounds prone in 40 seconds.
25 yards - 5 rounds standing, emergency reload while transitioning to kneeling, 5 rounds kneeling in 15 seconds.
7 yards - 2 rounds in 2 seconds
7 yards - 2 rounds in 2 seconds
7 yards - 2 rounds in 2 seconds
7 yards - 9 rounds burst or a 9 round NSR if using a semi auto - in 6 seconds.

Target is an ICE QT / "thug" target scored the normal 5/4/ anything else in the silhouette is a 2. If 100 yards is not available, as is the case on many LE ranges, the first stage is shot at 50 with a half sized target.

It's not "blaze ops" but it is a bit more balanced than what you describe.

As with out handguns, we must qualify quarterly to use the rifle in the field.

[JBP55]

I just had the opportunity to glance at a TX police department’s shotgun and handgun qualification courses of fire. It was a total of 3 rounds from the shotgun at not very far (can’t recall exactly, but it wasn’t much). The handgun qual course maxxed out at 15 yards. All but 5 rounds were fired from 10 yards and in. I thought the times allowed were very generous given the distances involved.

The P O S T Course for shotguns in Louisiana start at 50 yards and the handgun course starts at 25 yards. I know some States have reduced the distance to 15 yards.