Stephen Willeford, Describes Stopping Gunman (Texas Church)

[octagon]

I'd be curious what the group thinks of using a bigger caliber rifle vs a 5.56? Is that a valid lesson? To be clear I'm NOT criticizing or judging Mr Willeford. I know next to nothing about the AR-15, or body armor and hoping to glean some lessons to learn more.

It depends on need and context. For the most part I think most people are well equipped with a good 5.56 AR for self defense purposes. The caliber is capable of penetrating soft body armor with some minor exceptions. It shoots fairly flat and has decent terminal ballistics balanced with capacity,recoil,availability and reliability as well as accuracy. No caliber or rifle package is perfect for every task but the AR in 5.56 is pretty decent. If the shooter was wearing rifle rated armor the caliber along with actual cartridge chosen may make a difference but just alternate targeted area could work without changing caliber or cartridge. No need to go use 30.06 AP just change to upper body,head and neck or pelvic shots or side shot if available. The bigger more powerful calibers/cartridges give more options but have their drawbacks too.

[nalesq]

I'm going to get screamed at for saying this, but I'm afraid people are going to use this as an example to advocate doing things that aren't a very good idea.

Taking an AR to an active shooting scene: that worked out, and I'm glad, but it's not a good idea.

Flagging down a random motorist and, conversely, picking up an armed man you don't know: that worked out, and I'm glad, but it's not a good idea.

A high-speed chase in a civilian vehicle: that worked out, and I'm glad, but it's not a good idea.

Both these guys are tremendous heroes, there's no doubt about it. But I'm reluctant to use this as a case study to inform future tactics for civilians.

I agree with everything you say here.

I think the main reason it all “worked out” is because of the context of this particular incident occurring in a tiny village in Texas, relatively far from officialdom, moreover where locals can reliably distinguish between themselves and deviants on a virtually instinctive level. So it’s important to note these differences in any discussions with those people who may start advocating poor general practices as a result of the fortuitous outcomes of this particular event.

For example, going to an active shooter scene with a carbine is still not ideal because of the risk of being mistaken for the active shooter. In this case, the good citizen did so, but he was a recognizable neighbor in a tiny community, he was shoeless and he only had the mag in the weapon. These greatly mitigated any appearance of being the actual active shooter, who in this case helpfully dressed like an obvious active shooter.

Going on a high speed chase of a shitbag is still not a good idea because of the incredible liability and danger involved. But here there was a spectacular mass murderer in the middle of the act in the middle of nowhere where cops could conceivably be on the other side of the county. Also, the citizen did not act alone, but had another with him who could act as backup, witness, etc.



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[LOKNLOD]

Confronting and stopping the shooter was what “needed to be done”. As is often the case there was no “right way” to get the “right thing” done, and was as much dependent on luck and/or divine providence as it was skill or tactics.

Sometimes, you just gotta cowboy up and accept that a shit sandwich won’t eat itself, and take the best bite you can. That’s what those men did, God bless ‘em.

[Cookie Monster]

Had something come up the other day, dispatch told someone I worked with that the nearest state patrol officer was 100 miles away and no sheriff officers were on duty in that part of the county. I would figure that LE response time to my house would be 45 minutes to 1 hour.

I think that colors how us folks in small towns/boondocks think about when getting involved.

I thought a "funny" part of the interview was when he described when the first law enforcement showed up, and he put down his rifle and started to walk backwards - "Not you, Sir" Back on the rifle. I think there was like 6 or 7 LEO's on scene at the truck crash before they worked him out of the mix.

From the information the driver had, I could see myself picking up the dude with the rifle and giving chase. Not saying I'd be a hero or anything but small town you do what you need to do. Far cry from chasing down the church shooting dirt bag but once or twice a year, I am clearing fallen trees off public roads. A main highway once. Several times other dudes got out of their trucks and swamped things out.

[TGS]

I'd be curious what the group thinks of using a bigger caliber rifle vs a 5.56? Is that a valid lesson? To be clear I'm NOT criticizing or judging Mr Willeford. I know next to nothing about the AR-15, or body armor and hoping to glean some lessons to learn more.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, sometimes you go with what you've got. If all he had was a 4 round 308 semi-auto hunting rifle, then use it. 5.56 is a pretty optimal cartridge for engaging typical dismount armor, though.

I'm going to get screamed at for saying this, but I'm afraid people are going to use this as an example to advocate doing things that aren't a very good idea.

Taking an AR to an active shooting scene: that worked out, and I'm glad, but it's not a good idea.

Flagging down a random motorist and, conversely, picking up an armed man you don't know: that worked out, and I'm glad, but it's not a good idea.

A high-speed chase in a civilian vehicle: that worked out, and I'm glad, but it's not a good idea.

Both these guys are tremendous heroes, there's no doubt about it. But I'm reluctant to use this as a case study to inform future tactics for civilians.

All valid discussion topics. Let's get one thing out of the way: Taken in a vacuum, every decision where you are putting yourself in harms way is a bad idea.

With that said, I'm typically critical of what I see as, frankly, delusions of grandeur, hero fantasy's, etc. If you look at the context of the situation, it can be entirely prudent for a civilian to intervene in an active shooter with his rifle as was done here. There's a big difference between gearing up and going out to find the fight in a target-rich environment with a quick and overwhelming LE response (like a suburban mall) vs grabbing your rifle and going outside when you can see the shooter from your window, and you're in a very small town with minimal LE response.

High speed chase in a civilian vehicle? Okay, maybe not a prudent decision in an area where the cops are going to be there in 3-5 minutes and be swarming the area, or in an area with significant surveillance/ALPR capabilities (like NYC, where you're virtually on camera 100% of the time in certain parts). In this small Texas town? If they hadn't given chase, the shooter could have fled and inflicted harm elsewhere. These guys giving chase to keep LE advised on the shooter's location, direction and speed is not only prudent IMO, but common sense.

I think no matter what you'll have some people that picture themselves as Jack Bauer and jump the shark.

[voodoo_man]

Removing the particular unknowns of the situation in Texas things we know for sure:

.30 Cal will defeat intermediate barriers better than 5.56.

More rounds mean more time in the fight means fire superiority.

Two fully loaded 5.56 mags would be better than one, that's a universal fact.

A .30 Cal full mag, be it .300/762x39 or traditional .308 would have allowed for barrier penetration, especially if two full mags were available.

If dealing with a single contact, which is behind some kind of cover a mag can sacrificed with specific targeting to defeat cover and gain tactical advantage.

[psalms144.1]

Chance - I agree with every one of your points. Except for when they're not applicable. As stated above, our hero could SEE the BG. I used to live in one of the largest cities in TX, but outside the jurisdiction of the city police. At night, the Sheriff had four, count 'em, FOUR patrol deputies on duty - covering about 25,000 square miles. Response time was not measured in minutes. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

It's obvious from the fact that this man went to his gunfight bare footed with a handful of bullets shoved in a single magazine that's he's the diametrical opposite of the typical ARFCOM mall ninja in training. God bless him and his driver. Hell, I'll donate him my AR if he needs a replacement - someone figure out what FFL he uses...

[HCM]

I'd be curious what the group thinks of using a bigger caliber rifle vs a 5.56? Is that a valid lesson? To be clear I'm NOT criticizing or judging Mr Willeford. I know next to nothing about the AR-15, or body armor and hoping to glean some lessons to learn more.

No.

5.56 will defeat soft armor. 7.62x39 and 300 BO or .308 won't do significantly better on soft armor or defeat most plates without AP ammo.

This is where shooting does not equal fighting. More rounds of 5.56 is better than fewer bigger caliber rounds if only because it is more time in the fight. Hitting moving targets in a fight for example is a process involving shots with various amounts of lead until you get a hit to slow down or fix the opponent followed by follow up shots to finish the opponent. With more rounds you can reduce an armored opponent by getting a piece of them to fix them then finish them with additional shots to unarmored areas. Not to mention suppression fire to enable movement.

[JHC]

Chance - I agree with every one of your points. Except for when they're not applicable. As stated above, our hero could SEE the BG. I used to live in one of the largest cities in TX, but outside the jurisdiction of the city police. At night, the Sheriff had four, count 'em, FOUR patrol deputies on duty - covering about 25,000 square miles. Response time was not measured in minutes. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

It's obvious from the fact that this man went to his gunfight bare footed with a handful of bullets shoved in a single magazine that's he's the diametrical opposite of the typical ARFCOM mall ninja in training. God bless him and his driver. Hell, I'll donate him my AR if he needs a replacement - someone figure out what FFL he uses...

+1. Rules of thumb are just that. Developing situations and "developing the situation" require rapid problem solving with risk analysis. Its not the nature of things to fit into neat boxes.

[NETim]

I am not close to being an expert on anything. Given a similar situation, I'd ambush if possible and engage the nutball with a .22LR if that's all I had. Shoot for the punkin and hope for the best. Given the fact that almost without fail these punks are cowards and off themselves when met with any kind of resistance, I'd hope for that if a lucky shot doesn't end it first. If I had one of my 5.56 AR's, I'd feel much more confident naturally, regardless of the punk's choice of gear.

Edited to add: I live in a teeny, tiny little town of 350 in a very rural part of Nebraska. Law enforcement is spread out thin here too. It could be a long wait for them to arrive on scene.