Fixed magnification optics at close ranges

[Failure2Stop]

F2S, could you please point me to any resources on learning more about the practical negatives you mention, as well as what your recommended solution would be to overcome those via ancillary sighting systems? If this is something pretty obvious that I should just Google, feel free to tell me that as well.

Not much in regard to resources specifically oriented to showing the disparity.
I learned mine through repetition and application.
Force on Force is probably one of the best ways to see where they fall down if you don't want to bet your life on it.

[Mike C]

I have spent a lot of time behind a fixed power low magnification optics.
My experience with them covers 2&3 gun competition, personal ownership and use, military issue, military use in combat, large scale training from entry level through advanced small unit level, and high density sustainment training.

I f**king despise them.
Ok, that was a little harsh. I do not find any of them suitable for life and death use inside 50 meters in conditions that involve another dude trying to kill me.
If you stick a reflex type optic on top of them, and train to intuitively drive the top mounted dot, you overcome the most significant detriment to their employment.

I have invested many thousands of dollars in 1-whatever magnification optics and ancillary sighting systems specifically to fix the practical negatives of fixed power low magnification optics on guns that are taken into harm's way.

There is a reason that every combat-oriented user group is currently running a 1-6x optic program to replace their 4x optics; it isn't because the fixed 4x optics are so good they just cant stand to keep them.

Back before my last team got our Mk16s with fresh optics, we had a mix of Aimpoints, EoTechs, and ACOGs. The ACOGs were 4x, and the ACOG fans always crowed about how great they were when we were shooting qualifications and static rifle training iterations.

Then we went to a week long course that involved A LOT of close quarter shooting, in and out of buildings and vehicles. Every single one of my ACOG shooters stripped their optics off before the end of day 1, and ended up shooting irons the rest of the week.

Not saying a fixed power optic has NO place on a defensive carbine, just saying they can have serious limitations...

Any TA31’s or 33’s at 3x and 3.5x included in this or primarily TA01’s in the 4x range? Not arguing with either of you, I absolutely would agree with you that the 4x sucks for anyti by 50 and in but the 3 and 3.5 were completely usable for me and used to good effect.

[Failure2Stop]

Any TA31’s or 33’s at 3x and 3.5x included in this or primarily TA01’s in the 4x range? Not arguing with either of you, I absolutely would agree with you that the 4x sucks for anyti by 50 and in but the 3 and 3.5 were completely usable for me and used to good effect.

Primarily 31s and TA01NSNs, but also significant experience with the TA11. I generally like the 33 for weight reduction and simplicity, and adding a 1x to the top adds very little weight while significantly improving overall use. That said, I'm always happy with a NF 1-4, or a good lightweight 1-6.
Pretty much the only people that I recommend a 1x doggy-style in conjunction with a COG is folks that have them issued and have no alternative.

Also, while I can burn down broad daylight targets with a fixed magnification optic, that's way different that using it in a fight in transient lighting with multiple moving targets.

[Mike C]

Primarily 31s and TA01NSNs, but also significant experience with the TA11. I generally like the 33 for weight reduction and simplicity, and adding a 1x to the top adds very little weight while significantly improving overall use. That said, I'm always happy with a NF 1-4, or a good lightweight 1-6.
Pretty much the only people that I recommend a 1x doggy-style in conjunction with a COG is folks that have them issued and have no alternative.

Also, while I can burn down broad daylight targets with a fixed magnification optic, that's way different that using it in a fight in transient lighting with multiple moving targets.

No argument in dealing with transient lighting conditions, definitely a downside, being stuck at a specific magnification also a huge downer. I hated the TA01 with the reticle but found the lower powered brethren with chevron much more usable and still kind of like them, probably because I spent so much time with one and there is a familiarity comfort. Lot's of down sides when compared to todays stuff for sure. I can't argue with your logic that NF 1-4 is definitely the way to go on GP carbine they really are amazing. Wish I could get one setup proper for what I am using now. Thanks for dropping your perspective.

[Hambo]

My experience is pretty much the same as everybody else's. I used a TA01NSN back when that was supposed to be the shit (before RDS on top of it), and it wasn't. I had another ACOG that was low powered with a dot, and I liked it more than the TA01 but less than RDS. I also had a couple scout rifles with 2.5x at one point and while I could hit out to 300 I didn't like the concept enough to keep the rifles. On hunting rifles I've been using 1.5-5x or 1.75-6x scopes for a long time.

I think that if fixed power was so great, everybody wouldn't have jumped ship for variables.

[psalms144.1]

Any TA31’s or 33’s at 3x and 3.5x included in this or primarily TA01’s in the 4x range? Not arguing with either of you, I absolutely would agree with you that the 4x sucks for anyti by 50 and in but the 3 and 3.5 were completely usable for me and used to good effect.

Ours were all TA01s...

[Redhat]

Ours were all TA01s...

Did those have the iron sights o top and did you find them useful at all?

[psalms144.1]

Redhat - yes, and no.

The only "sight on sight" option that we found useful were the Docter Optics on top of the Elcans - but that was still a marginal solution. If I were in the market for a combination today, I'd go with a LPV on the top rail, and offset BUIS on the right side of the rifle.

But, I'm a crappy enough rifleman nowadays that, realistically, an RDS is all I need at the ranges I'm likely to engage...

[arcfide]

I played around with things like the Bindon Aiming Concept and the like and low power fixed optics, but quickly discovered that they were almost useless to me. One needs to be aware of the limitations of eyesight. In my case, it became clear that my offhand eye was so much weaker than my dominant eye that the fixed magnification made it almost impossible to maintain any degree of awareness or efficient aiming even on a well light, square range with good illuminated reticles.

However, RDS's cause similar problems because of eye strain, and they can have blooming issues at night for me.

In the end, I've come to find that either regular iron sights with good apertures or a crisp, clear low-power variable with a true-1x are the way to go for me. I'm personally very fond of the Steiner T5Xi 1-5 because of it's 1x image and streamlining. But I really hate the added weight of a variable optic on the rifle.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

LPV on the top rail, and offset BUIS on the right side of the rifle.

This is where I've landed for a general purpose gun and I think it's great. I wasn't sure if I'd like the offsets when I first picked up a pair but I find them very easy to use. I haven't had any situations where the optic was damage...but I have seen it obscured by moisture more times than I could count. The offsets are awesome for that.

I played around with things like the Bindon Aiming Concept and the like and low power fixed optics, but quickly discovered that they were almost useless to me. One needs to be aware of the limitations of eyesight. In my case, it became clear that my offhand eye was so much weaker than my dominant eye that the fixed magnification made it almost impossible to maintain any degree of awareness or efficient aiming even on a well light, square range with good illuminated reticles.

That's a really interesting thought. I don't really have a dominant eye; I actually had to pick one when I started shooting and even now if I don't shoot for a few months I have to remind my brain with a bit of dryfire to prioritize one side. This makes me think I should mess around with a fixed optic in occluded mode just to see if it works for people without a noticeable dominant side. Not that I really need it to or anything, but just for curiosity's sake.