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Thread: Fixed magnification optics at close ranges

  1. #1
    Member That Guy's Avatar
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    Fixed magnification optics at close ranges

    It is my belief that a general purpose carbine (in this instance, an AR-15) should have a magnified optical sight.

    Whilst a low power variable magnification optic would obviously be a good choice, as it could be adapted to a wide variety of circumstances, finding one of sufficient quality tends to be an expensive affair - especially over here. There are, of course, cheap scopes too (Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x leaps to mind), but their quality and reliability seem a bit suspect. Since fixed magnification scopes have an inherently simpler construction, it seems to me that one of those, with the same price point as a low power variable, ought to be a more reliable choice with better glass. And looking over reviews of cheap scopes such as the Primary Arms prism scopes, it certainly seems that they can take a bit of a beating and seem to have markedly clearer glass than variable scopes of similar price.

    At proper rifle ranges, a fixed magnification should not of course be an issue. I am, however, wondering how difficult would using a fixed magnification sight at close ranges be? Most reviews and such I've found have heavily focused on using these scopes at ranges they are most suitable in, skipping pretty much entirely over the topic of what if one needs to shoot something at a really short range.

    I am hoping some of you ladies and gentlemen have spent enough time with fixed magnification sights to be able to give me some idea of how large a performance hit would a regular bloke take when using a sight like this in close range applications, and whether or not one could train to a reasonable standard of proficiency with a sighting system like this, with a reasonable expenditure of time and effort.

    Thank you all for your help.
    Last edited by That Guy; 10-31-2017 at 02:36 PM. Reason: proper grammar would bee gooder.

  2. #2
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    Fixed magnification optics at close ranges

    I personally haven’t, and I’m fairly interested in hearing other opinions and experiences, but Karl and Ian from InRangeTV have found some interesting things whilst doing their 2Gun Action Challenge Matches. I’d look those up. Some of them they specifically did some testing with a Primary Arms fixed magnification optic.

    EDIT: I couldn’t quickly find the matches where they use this thing, but I did find their review on the PA 2.5x Prism Scope.

    https://youtu.be/JoPpg_Tzq7c


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    Last edited by spinmove_; 10-31-2017 at 02:46 PM.

  3. #3
    Supporting Business CS Tactical's Avatar
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    Depending on your budget, there are plenty of decent options that are higher quality than the Strike Eagle yet don't break the bank like Vortex's new PST Gen II for example which is right under $700. pics here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....copes-in-stock!
    CS Tactical
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  4. #4
    I've had a lot of luck hunting deer in very thick cover with fixed 2.5x and 4x scopes. Shots are typically 10-30 yards, and it's no problem to get quick hits with the 4x. I've had no problem reaching out to 200 yards or a bit more with the 2.5x, and it's easy to hit stuff with the 4x out to 300 yards or so.

    For what you're talking about, look at Leupold's VX-R 1-4x20. It has an illuminated reticle so it might be able to stand in for an RDS up close (not sure whether it's a true 1x at the low end, though) but it's 4x at the top end so it should be able to reach out a ways as well. The reticle has at least some ranging ability, so that might help depending on your zero.


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  5. #5
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    It depends on the fixed power optic and it likely depends on the individual. In times testing I found I could get down to about 40 yds with a TA11 before my performance would start to nose dive and it was about 30 yds with a TA33. My shooting partners threshold was about 30 yards further out for both optics. If I were running a fixed power optic, I would also be running offset irons or an offset red dot.

  6. #6
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    I have a fair to middling amount of experience with both a conventional and scout 2.5x Leupold. Caveat, this was in the mid to late 90's and my 20 years older eyes might not agree. I'll be 60 shortly.

    I didn't notice much practical difference in speed from 5 - ~200 yards. I could reliably get good hits on reasonable targets on demand. I appreciated the lightweight, lower price, and generous eye relief.

    There is a lot to be said for a low powered, fixed conventional optic in the 2.5-4x range. I spend the first half of my life with fixed 4x scopes and never went hungry. Another caveat - my hunting was in the South, so ranges weren't anything like what someone out west encounters.
    Semper Paratus,

    Steve

  7. #7
    If you train enough, you can master the use of foxed power up close. I've seen @rob_s do it with an ACOG. He would close the front cover and shoot both eyes open. I prefer a 1-6 but what you're asking about can be accomplished.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony1911 View Post
    It is my belief that a general purpose carbine (in this instance, an AR-15) should have a magnified optical sight.

    Whilst a low power variable magnification optic would obviously be a good choice, as it could be adapted to a wide variety of circumstances, finding one of sufficient quality tends to be an expensive affair - especially over here. There are, of course, cheap scopes too (Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x leaps to mind), but their quality and reliability seem a bit suspect. Since fixed magnification scopes have an inherently simpler construction, it seems to me that one of those, with the same price point as a low power variable, ought to be a more reliable choice with better glass. And looking over reviews of cheap scopes such as the Primary Arms prism scopes, it certainly seems that they can take a bit of a beating and seem to have markedly clearer glass than variable scopes of similar price.

    At proper rifle ranges, a fixed magnification should not of course be an issue. I am, however, wondering how difficult would using a fixed magnification sight at close ranges be? Most reviews and such I've found have heavily focused on using these scopes at ranges they are most suitable in, skipping pretty much entirely over the topic of what if one needs to shoot something at a really short range.

    I am hoping some of you ladies and gentlemen have spent enough time with fixed magnification sights to be able to give me some idea of how large a performance hit would a regular bloke take when using a sight like this in close range applications, and whether or not one could train to a reasonable standard of proficiency with a sighting system like this, with a reasonable expenditure of time and effort.

    Thank you all for your help.
    What specific optic are you looking at? As El Cid has pointed out ACOG's can absolutely be used to good effect. A lot of my deployments and training were with just an ACOG, I'm still standing here and most of my work was done within 7-25 yards and less with the occasional at 150-175 yards so they work just fine. It is mainly a matter of putting in the work, and it really doesn't take much IMHO. ACOG's definitely are not as fast as a straight up red dot or a variable where you can dial down magnification. I still have a love for them though. With all that being said for the price of an ACOG you can easily get something that will fit your needs for the same or less as CS Tactical pointed out. Now, if you are going for something more rugged with pedigree that's another story, there are options but they will cost you. I don't keep up with optics but you can find a boat load of options these days with solid features and a good warranty for reasonable money. There really isn't a reason to spend the money on an ACOG or anything similar unless you just want to/nostalgia.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS Tactical View Post
    Depending on your budget, there are plenty of decent options that are higher quality than the Strike Eagle yet don't break the bank like Vortex's new PST Gen II for example which is right under $700.
    Thank you for the tip. However, even though I can find a local seller for Vortex scopes who does not inflate the prices to an unreasonable degree, we're still talking about spending a $1000 or more on the scope when bolted onto the rifle; I would of course need to get a mount for the scope too. A Primary Arms fixed power prism scope is $500 or less when mounted onto the rifle. At my current situation, the price difference is rather tempting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MolonLabe416 View Post
    I have a fair to middling amount of experience with both a conventional and scout 2.5x Leupold.
    I actually have experience with a 2.5x scout scope, myself, and found it to work really well at really close ranges (in the scout rifle thread I posted a modification of the old IDPA Classifier for bolt guns). However, a scout scope is quite a different thing than a short eye relief scope, so I am guessing experiences with one might not apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
    What specific optic are you looking at? As El Cid has pointed out ACOG's can absolutely be used to good effect. A lot of my deployments and training were with just an ACOG, I'm still standing here and most of my work was done within 7-25 yards and less with the occasional at 150-175 yards so they work just fine. It is mainly a matter of putting in the work, and it really doesn't take much IMHO.
    Thank you. That sounds rather encouraging.

    On the one hand, I find myself curious about fixed power scopes in general. I like the idea of ruggedness, simplicity, clarity of glass, all those positive aspects of them. Realistically though I don't have much money to use so right now I'm looking at mainly the Primary Arms scopes, especially the 3x. Which, yes, is no ACOG. But apparently it should be a serviceable scope for not a lot of money.
    Last edited by That Guy; 11-01-2017 at 10:38 AM. Reason: attempt at clarity.

  10. #10
    Supporting Business CS Tactical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony1911 View Post
    Thank you for the tip. However, even though I can find a local seller for Vortex scopes who does not inflate the prices to an unreasonable degree, we're still talking about spending a $1000 or more on the scope when bolted onto the rifle; I would of course need to get a mount for the scope too. A Primary Arms fixed power prism scope is $500 or less when mounted onto the rifle. At my current situation, the price difference is rather tempting.
    @Tony1911 Not sure if you're referring to us inflating the price as every dealer must follow MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing) or get cut as a dealer but also take into account Sales Tax if they are local to you. That also does not mean that it's the price that you may pay, also I'm pretty sure the scope I recommended and an ADM mount will be well under $1,000. I'm not asking you to buy from us, I'm just letting you know about other options as I think fixed power scopes are going the way of a horse and buggy.

    P.S. the scope I mentioned is $699 MAP and $999 MSRP but who pays MSRP?
    Last edited by CS Tactical; 11-01-2017 at 10:51 AM.
    CS Tactical
    For the best pricing on Optics please PM or call 916.670.1103
    Dealer for Zero Compromise, Tangent Theta, Leupold,
    Nightforce, MDT, Vortex, XLR Industries and more...
    www.cstactical.com

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