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Thread: Grizzly Bear Defense

  1. #791
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Grizzly Bear Defense

    I forgot to mention my observations on red vs. green dot color. To my eyes, red had much better contrast in the often-backlit herbaceous lower canopy we hiked in.

    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie

  2. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I forgot to mention my observations on red vs. green dot color. To my eyes, red had much better contrast in the often-backlit herbaceous lower canopy we hiked in.

    A few summers ago, we nixed green optics in AK for the same reason. Everything is green here most of the time the bears are active!
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #793
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A few summers ago, we nixed green optics in AK for the same reason. Everything is green here most of the time the bears are active!
    I remember you mentioning that, and didn't take it seriously because I hadn't encountered conditions like this. Most of the time green was great--except when it wasn't. Sunlight shining through Devil's club or salmonberry was exactly the same color as my 503GU on the 1301.
    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie

  4. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    Just a few observations from a recent trip to the Kodiak archipelago with @Clusterfrack. While neither of us could claim to be an old Alaska hand, both have had fairly extensive experience with wilderness travel in areas where bears are present. With the exception of a 10-day backpack through the Coal Creek area of Glacier, all of my experience has been with black bears in the Sierra Nevada, Cascades, and Sawtooths. In my experience the PNW bears are wary; the Sierras are full of aggressive, human-habituated animals. We believed that species-specific behavior plus the remoteness of the location that we visited argued for a wary bear model to build our strategy around. That, like any safety regimen, is based on awareness and avoidance. To the extent that the terrain we travelled permitted, our routefinding avoided areas of dense cover or attractive forage. We maintained an awareness of the prevailing wind direction related to our direction of travel, and took ample advantage of the glorious silence of the place to listen for movement. When the environmental factors tilted agains us due to things like proximity to running water, wind noise or wind shifts we verbally acknowledged same and adjusted our alertness accordingly. The steepness of some of the terrain we travelled made the bill of my ball cap an impediment to forward vision, so I was at times forced to reverse my hat.

    Guns were always going to be a part of the equation for us. We also discussed and researched the use of bear spray and concluded that it would not have a place in our kit, mainly due to the condition-specific requirements for its effective use. The outfitter for our transportation to and from the cabin was very spray-positive, but apparently missed the irony of self-immolation being part of an AAR they related about an attack being successfully interrupted by (full credit to the Forum member who coined this great phrase) blessing the deserving with the hot sauce. We remarked on several occasions in our time on the trail how unsuitable the conditions were for aerosol use.

    So, guns. How big and how many? Handguns were going to be a given; based on anecdotes from folks with extensive experience we decided that long guns would add considerable value and would also be making the trip with us. We started to work toward a solution with the understanding that instantaneous incapacitation would almost certainly be required to reduce a critical encounter, either via CNS or skeletal damage. That meant that handgun ammo had to be capable of reliably penetrating a bruin's brain pan, which led me to Lehigh Defense's 10mm 190gr. monolithic copper penetrator. I was able to get them to run a bit better than 1100 fps. out of a G20 over Power Pistol in the time I had available to work up a load. Big thanks to @Clusterfrack who had done extensive work sorting out various reliability issues with that platform under heavy loads. At his suggestion I swapped the stock recoil spring assembly on my Gen. 3 pistol for a tungsten guide rod and 24# spring, as well as adding enhanced springs and shims from .460 Rowland. The gun ran like a champ for the 500 or so rounds I got through it before we departed.

    For a long gun, I seized upon an actual excuse to add something that I've always kind of wanted and picked up a complete upper receiver in .458 SOCOM. There's a dearth of really good load development information available out there for that platform, as well as some horribly misguided information posted by people for whom "was not fragged by exploding upper receiver" and "no pressure signs" are apparently synonymous. I ended up with Lehigh Defense 302gr. penetrators running about 1800fps. I got right about 200 rounds downrange in the course of load development and practice. Magazines were a bit fiddly at first, but good old USGI 20 rounders soon rose to the top of the heap and ran flawlessly for me.

    For optics, red dots on both platforms. A closed-emitter optic was recommended for the pistol due to the high likelihood of rain, so I went with a Holosun 509 ACSS. It took a little while for the chevron reticle to grow on me. It seemed to draw my eye to it at first, but once I figured out that it was trying to claw back some of my hard-won gains in target focus I got that sorted out. I think that I still prefer a simple dot, but with more time behind it I could very well feel differently. I did encounter the well-documented issue of the battery that ships with the optic being absolute crap. The backup solar panel functioned as advertised, but its performance is entirely dependent on the quality of the ambient light available. I ran an Aimpoint PRO on the carbine for its simplicity and reliability.

    Carrying both guns on the trail along with a pack was something that took a little work to figure out. I've got a small mobility issue that requires me to walk with poles over uneven terrain, and I've found that the Kifaru GunBearer to be a great solution. I found my way to it though my disenchantment with scabbard-style packs at hike & shoot events, and while it is designed for full length rifles it worked just fine with a carbine. @Clusterfrack noticed that the position of the muzzle could lead to a serious facial injury in some fall scenarios, but that's about the only downside I'm aware of. The rifle was carried in a cruiser ready condition on the trail. I swapped the Kifaru muzzle retaining strap for an Atlas/Voile style elastic band for ease of use and security of retention. With practice it's possible to get the gun mounted from carry quickly and efficiently. I regularly reminded myself of the condition the gun was being carried in, but would have done well to have including the charging motion in more of my deployment practice work.

    I settled on a chest rig for the G20. It's a compromise insomuch as its design emphasizes retention above ease of presentation, but I was able to develop a reasonably effective draw stroke by grasping the large buckle at the top of the harness with my support hand. It's not ideal with regard to proximity to the muzzle, but definitely a movement that can be performed without sweeping that hand, and clearly safer IMO than attempting to draw from a holster that wants to move with the gun. Awareness of your partner's location is critically important to performing a safe draw from this device. It carried exceptionally well with the pack, and wasn't vulnerable to hanging up in brush.

    Attachment 92271
    Great info!

    A couple of questions, if you don’t mind:
    - which G20 chest rig is that?
    - do you know what the overall as-carried length of your 458 was? Your picture looks significantly different from the Kifaru pictures of the gun bearer; is the muzzle in any danger of sweeping any of your face/head in unusual positions or during a fall? At first glance your pic made me nervous….
    -how was the comfort of the gun bearer while hiking? Any balance or visibility compromises?

  5. #795
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    I'm not the OP, but I'm reasonably certain the chest rig is a Kenai;

    https://gunfightersinc.com/shop/cust...chest-holster/

    The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.

  6. #796
    Site Supporter JCL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Great info!

    A couple of questions, if you don’t mind:
    - which G20 chest rig is that?
    - do you know what the overall as-carried length of your 458 was? Your picture looks significantly different from the Kifaru pictures of the gun bearer; is the muzzle in any danger of sweeping any of your face/head in unusual positions or during a fall? At first glance your pic made me nervous….
    -how was the comfort of the gun bearer while hiking? Any balance or visibility compromises?
    Gunfighters (Inc.) Kenai Chest Holster, and yes, the GunBearer was almost certainly designed to carry a full-length rifle. My carbine was carried bolt forward on an empty chamber (mentioned in my post), as was the potential for the muzzle to contact me in a fall scenario. I considered that to be an acceptable risk in light of no clearly better alternatives. I may have created confusion with my usage of cruiser ready; it never occurred to me that there was a school of thought that holds that an AR platform can be safely transported with a round in the chamber under any circumstances. Is that really a thing? If so, I apologize for my ignorance creating confusion. I'll edit the OP to remove all doubt.
    Last edited by JCL; 08-02-2022 at 02:05 PM.

  7. #797
    Site Supporter JCL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Sounds like you two had a great trip!

    A few thoughts. While the statistics suggest you probably only need to make the bear think you aren't an easy target, by some combination of warning or body shot, if the bear isn't impressed, you probably will need to strike the brain or spine. Fortunately most bears don't like to be hurt, and discontinue the attack without a CNS hit, or the stats would be much worse.

    It is easier to be on full bear alert on a trip, than all year, and compromises end up being made. For my wife and I, unless we are hunting, it is one long gun between us, plus our individual handguns. That we we have the ability to split the load up easier. Whatever a field handgun will do, the Brenneke or rifle caliber projectile does much better. While there are exceptions, I want that long gun in my hands, because many attacks are abrupt.

    In the part of AK you visited, deer season is one of the worst times for bears, because they have learned to associate gun shots with down deer!
    Yes, given the clarity of 20/20 hindsight leaving the carbine behind was a concession that could and should have been avoided with better physical preparation for the rigors of the terrain. Thanks for confirming the dinner bell effect. We considered a live zero confirmation on arrival at the lake but rejected it for just that reason.

  8. #798
    Site Supporter JCL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    ... Even a chest rig competes with your sternum strap....
    My Mystery Ranch Scapegoat pack has a bit of up/down adjustment that permits me to deconflict the chest strap and holster. I'm not a big fan of chest straps when I'm sucking wind, which I definitely was on terrain that gained about 1K feet/mile.

  9. #799
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    Grizzly Bear Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by JCL View Post
    Gunfighters (Inc.) Kenai Chest Holster, and yes, the GunBearer was almost certainly designed to carry a full-length rifle. My carbine was carried bolt forward on an empty chamber (mentioned in my post), as was the potential for the muzzle to contact me in a fall scenario. I considered that to be an acceptable risk in light of no clearly better alternatives. I may have created confusion with my usage of cruiser ready; it never occurred to me that there was a school of thought that holds that an AR platform can be safely transported with a round in the chamber under any circumstances. Is that really a thing? If so, I apologize for my ignorance creating confusion. I'll edit the OP to remove all doubt.
    Your original post was quite clear, and I think your solution was a very reasonable trade off of risks vs doing what you needed to ensure you would actually carry an effective tool. That’s why I’m interested, I’m wondering how say a 1301 would look in the same setup. I just have a somewhat irrational fear of rifle muzzles even when cruiser ready.

  10. #800
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    @luckyman, without having exact measurements, I think the two guns are about the same length (with @JCL’s stock fully extended).
    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie

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