Grizzly Bear Defense

[Bigghoss]

I need to get a Glock 20...

[5pins]

Great shooting, indeed.

While the primary reason for this outcome was marksmanship under stress, one of the principles reported that the load used was HSM's 10mm 200 grain Bear Load. This is a milder load than the ones offered by many other makers of 10mm boutique ammo. It typically chronographs less than 1100 FPS. It also has a smaller meplat than some of the other hard cast 10mm loadings. Both of these, in my opinon, are helpful for reliable feeding in a Glock 20, and in this particular instance at least, it was enough to get the job done.

You make a good point. Other manufacturers seem to push the velocity as high as they can because people seem to think that's what they need. In reality, they are sacrificing reliably for a modest gain in performance, if any.

[Cookie Monster]

I need to get a Glock 20...

Me too. And a pair of huge brass balls like the hunter.

[1slow]

Historically British dangerous game cartridges for Africa were:large caliber, heavy bullet for caliber, moderate velocity and pressure (for rifles) and strongly constructed bullets.
Obviously only some of this is relevant as velocities are higher for the rifle cartridges.

For pistols I look at what Elmer Keith, Ross Seyfried, John Taffin etc ... used. Big heavy for caliber bullets that are not driven past their velocity design parameters. Thus they stay intact and penetrate.

The trick seems to be to try to get this into a manageable package that is controllable for accurate rapid fire.
There are tradeoffs between a 5 - 6 shot .44 - .50 revolver and a higher capacity auto pistol such as, 12 + 1 shot HK USP .45 Super, HK 8+1 /10+1 45C .45 Super or Glock 10mm.

[41magfan]

It may no be immediately apparent to non-hunters, but there's a pretty significant difference between arming oneself to kill a bear on purpose, and arming yourself to defensively shoot a bear at contact/near contact distances.

The delivery of the shot in a hunting scenario is a very deliberate and controlled exercise in marksmanship, whereas the defensive shooting will likely be purely reactionary. In the former situation, I will always have two hands on the gun and my shot placement will be thoughtful. In the later, it may impossible to have two hands on the gun and my aiming point(s) will be whatever is presented under the circumstances.

So, I see a single-action .454 Casull revolver being very appropriate for the former, but perhaps not so much with the later.

[flyrodr]

And, should one consider the smaller black bears harmless:

https://www.ncwildlife.org/News/swan...bear-encounter

The interactions were bound to happen, considering the significant increase in black bear numbers in western NC:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/ne...216065460.html

[OlongJohnson]

I need to get a Glock 20...

No, go read this thread and get a USP45.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....5-field-pistol

[Bigghoss]

No, go read this thread and get a USP45.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....5-field-pistol

I did read that. I was gonna buy at least one of each regardless.

[Lester Polfus]

You make a good point. Other manufacturers seem to push the velocity as high as they can because people seem to think that's what they need. In reality, they are sacrificing reliably for a modest gain in performance, if any.

I agree. The 200-grain hard cast bullet has a pretty high sectional density. In fact, it's as high as a 255 grain .45 ACP bullet. It doesn't have to go THAT fast to penetrate very deeply. I would argue that anywhere north of 1000 fps will get it done. I've been running Glock 20s as a trail pistol since 2001 or so, and I've found you can have any two of the following three: 1) 1200 FPS velocity 2) a 200 Grain bullet or 3) a wide flat nose bullet. When you start trying to have all three, the gun begins to choke, particularly if you have a less than optimal grip, like you might have if a grizzly is chewing on you.

People seem to think that a 200 grain 10mm bullet going 1050 fps is weak sauce but, one going 1200 fps is somehow going to vaporize a bear. The 1200 fps benchmark is an aspirational goal for the 10mm cartridge and might be achievable out of a 5" pressure test barrel, but it's difficult to acheive from a real world handgun.

No, go read this thread and get a USP45.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....5-field-pistol

I'm heavily invested in the 10mm platform, and have been experimenting with 10mm loads for over 15 years. I think it is a vialbe backwoods cartridge, particularly if you are willing to ignore some of the more dicey boutique ammo out there.

However, if all my Glock 10mm stuff burned up in a fire or something, I'd probably just go out and buy a USP 45. Based on GJMs reports, it may be the optimal field pistol. It is what I would suggest to anyone starting from scratch. You'd have the choice of either the 255 grain .45 Super load, or one of the Lehgih offerings. For use around town you could pick any one of the .45 ACP loads that make "the list" and just quit worrying about it.

[StraitR]

I found the following quote from the TTAG New Mexico encounter article interesting...

But he’s alive and thinking about heavier, deeper-penetrating bullets in 10mm cartridges designed for bear defense, to carry in his GLOCK.

I'm wondering what he felt was lacking, or what other ammo choice would have performed better than the 175gr Hornady Critical Duty in this instance. I understand that isn't a traditional ammo choice, but from everything I've read on PF (or linked from here), it takes a headshot to stop these animals. The article said he made a single headshot, and the result was a dead bear. Would he not have had to make the same headshot with 200gr Underwood or similar, or does that "designed for bear defense" ammo make bears somehow "more dead" than his dead bear? Am I missing something?