Grizzly Bear Defense

[msstate56]

Ive often thought id like to try devising a way to attach the pepper canister to the stock of the rifle and run a hose with the spray nozzle to the muzzle with some kind of controller by the gun grip, so you could use it yet still have the gun ready.

Surely you jest.

I’ve never used OC on a bear, but I have on persons in my professional capacity. I have never, and will never use OC on something or someone that is posing an imminent lethal threat. If I think I’m about to be killed or dismembered- lethal force is the only option. Plus, every time I’ve ever deployed OC, I end up getting some on me as well. I can’t imagine how bad it would be with a huge fogger spray. I’ve watched some videos of people trying to juggle a pistol and a can of bear spray at the same time. That’s a great way to be ineffective with both. There’s a reason most LE agencies have a policy that doesn’t allow you to have both lethal and non/less lethal deployed by the same person at the same time.

[Malamute]

Surely you jest.

I’ve never used OC on a bear, but I have on persons in my professional capacity. I have never, and will never use OC on something or someone that is posing an imminent lethal threat. If I think I’m about to be killed or dismembered- lethal force is the only option. Plus, every time I’ve ever deployed OC, I end up getting some on me as well. I can’t imagine how bad it would be with a huge fogger spray. I’ve watched some videos of people trying to juggle a pistol and a can of bear spray at the same time. That’s a great way to be ineffective with both. There’s a reason most LE agencies have a policy that doesn’t allow you to have both lethal and non/less lethal deployed by the same person at the same time.

No, no jest. Certainly if you knew you were about to be killed or dismembered lethal force is the answer. The issue is one doesnt know if they are about to be killed or dismembered when dealing with bears. If you shoot any bear that looks at you or comes near you it will complicated your life. It may be advisable to just not go where bears live if that afraid of them. So far ive slept on the ground hundreds of nights in bear country with little issue, the dogs handled it at the time when one tried coming into camp, but I had both a heavy rifle ready and pepper close by.

Trying to manage two separate and different things at once is the reason making both easier to use but available seemed like a good idea. Maybe it wouldnt work, maybe it would. I couldnt figure out how to handle the bear spray and rifle at the same time and have the rifle ready.

[msstate56]

No, no jest. Certainly if you knew you were about to be killed or dismembered lethal force is the answer. The issue is one doesnt know if they are about to be killed or dismembered when dealing with bears. If you shoot any bear that looks at you or comes near you it will complicated your life. It may be advisable to just not go where bears live if that afraid of them. So far ive slept on the ground hundreds of nights in bear country with little issue, the dogs handled it at the time when one tried coming into camp, but I had both a heavy rifle ready and pepper close by.

Trying to manage two separate and different things at once is the reason making both easier to use but available seemed like a good idea. Maybe it wouldnt work, maybe it would. I couldnt figure out how to handle the bear spray and rifle at the same time and have the rifle ready.

I’m not sure if you’re replying to things I didn’t say- or if you’re just speaking in general. I made no statement that every bear that is within proximity to a human should be shot. Every incident is a judgement call, wether people, bears, dogs, whatever. I spend time in bear country every year, and have had several brown bear contacts. I didn’t need to shoot any of them. I carry a G20 in addition to a rifle and sleep just fine.

[11B10]

I carry a G20 in addition to a rifle and sleep just fine.



This ^^^^ begs the question, to me anyway: What ammo are you using for bears?

[Malamute]

I’m not sure if you’re replying to things I didn’t say- or if you’re just speaking in general. I made no statement that every bear that is within proximity to a human should be shot. Every incident is a judgement call, wether people, bears, dogs, whatever. I spend time in bear country every year, and have had several brown bear contacts. I didn’t need to shoot any of them. I carry a G20 in addition to a rifle and sleep just fine.

Your previous post seemed to imply a bear encounter was assumed to be a lethal encounter, as well as a negative opinion of using pepper in relation to bears based on your experience and the perceived inability to have both usable. There was no context of your bear experience previously at that time. There have been legion online comments about "any bear that comes near me Im going to...blah blah etc", I wasnt sure if your comment fit in that category or not, but with no experience context, and the apparent discrediting pepper with regards to bear contacts lead me to believe that it may. My apologies for misunderstanding your position.

Surely you jest.

I’ve never used OC on a bear, but I have on persons in my professional capacity. I have never, and will never use OC on something or someone that is posing an imminent lethal threat. If I think I’m about to be killed or dismembered- lethal force is the only option. Plus, every time I’ve ever deployed OC, I end up getting some on me as well. I can’t imagine how bad it would be with a huge fogger spray. I’ve watched some videos of people trying to juggle a pistol and a can of bear spray at the same time. That’s a great way to be ineffective with both. There’s a reason most LE agencies have a policy that doesn’t allow you to have both lethal and non/less lethal deployed by the same person at the same time.

I think pepper is a useful tool for dealing with bears, but I dont want it to be the only option or tool. Being able to have both available without having both options ready dilemma is the origin of the idea. I think if grizzlies were hunted in the lower 48 there would end up being less issues overall with time, but currently they have little reason to fear humans, the few that get killed in encounters doesnt really educate the others. Pepper can help teach bears to leave people alone or at least make a potentially fatal encounter for the bear into a non fatal encounter, but how to have plan B instantly available in case plan A doesnt work is the question. Many seem to make it an either/or question, take one or the other, not both.

[msstate56]

I carry a G20 in addition to a rifle and sleep just fine.



This ^^^^ begs the question, to me anyway: What ammo are you using for bears?

I was using 140 Underwood Lehigh. This year I’ve switched to the G9. Accuracy is about the same (2-2.5” @ 25 yards). I like the G9 projectile better and ballistic tests seem to indicate that it will penetrate as well as anything else available. I’ve tried 200 hard cast from Underwood (split cases) and Grizzly Cartridge (keyholing) with poor results. This with G20 factory barrel and a Brownells (conventional rifling) threaded barrel.

[msstate56]

Your previous post seemed to imply a bear encounter was assumed to be a lethal encounter, as well as a negative opinion of using pepper in relation to bears based on your experience and the perceived inability to have both usable. There was no context of your bear experience previously at that time. There have been legion online comments about "any bear that comes near me Im going to...blah blah etc", I wasnt sure if your comment fit in that category or not, but with no experience context, and the apparent discrediting pepper with regards to bear contacts lead me to believe that it may. My apologies for misunderstanding your position.






I think pepper is a useful tool for dealing with bears, but I dont want it to be the only option or tool. Being able to have both available without having both options ready dilemma is the origin of the idea. I think if grizzlies were hunted in the lower 48 there would end up being less issues overall with time, but currently they have little reason to fear humans, the few that get killed in encounters doesnt really educate the others. Pepper can help teach bears to leave people alone or at least make a potentially fatal encounter for the bear into a non fatal encounter, but how to have plan B instantly available in case plan A doesnt work is the question. Many seem to make it an either/or question, take one or the other, not both.

I agree 100% that lower 48 grizzlies need to be hunted in sustainable numbers. OC has a place, which I think is mostly for discouraging a curious but not immediately aggressive bear, I would not use OC on a bear that is on a full tilt charge. There are documented cases of bears running right through a cloud of OC to continue the attack. Just like people can fight through OC (which I have). I’ve little old me can fight through the pain and effects of a full face exposure of OC and continue to fight- a 600+ pound bear damn sure can.

[MickAK]

At what point if any would this bear get shot? @GJM, @MickAK

Got a little more time to respond.

I'd bet a significant amount of money that bear was acting annoyed for many minutes prior to him coming over to investigate those people. Bears will look at you when they notice you. After they determine what you are, they will ignore you. If they keep looking at you they're annoyed and scared and getting nervous. If you don't start moving off a bluff charge often follows.

He's not moving like a charging bear. He's doing that kind of stiff legged galloping thing they do when they're trying to look at something while running. I've only been actually charged once, and there's no really mistaking that for a bluff charge. I guess to answer your question if he came up close and moved off like he did, then turned and lowered his head he'd get all the bullets.

A good analogy would be at what point would you shoot someone displaying threatening behavior to your family. If an edgy teenager from the suburbs who felt like acting gangsta did it, you would probably let that behavior continue a lot longer before resorting to lethal force than if a 36 year old hardened criminal who's clearly doing life on the installment plan. One might be more likely to engage in that behavior but the other knows what it means.

As far as the spray vs gun debate ongoing it's difficult to express how much effect a face full of spray has on a bear to someone who hasn't seen it happen. They're not people and it is not equivalent. Their world comes apart. Bears fight all the time and they have claws and teeth, they often get pretty nasty wounds. There's nothing equivalent in their world to getting a giant huff of bear spray. The primary weaknesses of spray are the inability to let off warning shots to drive away cubs and bears you can hear but can't see, thus avoiding an incident all together, as well as the fact that those cans only hold so much. If you discharge one and you still have 4 days left on a remote backpacking trip it's not a comfortable feeling. I have other things to carry than multiple cans of bear spray, and as previously mentioned I've met more sketchy people than sketchy bears in the backcountry.

[11B10]

I was using 140 Underwood Lehigh. This year I’ve switched to the G9. Accuracy is about the same (2-2.5” @ 25 yards). I like the G9 projectile better and ballistic tests seem to indicate that it will penetrate as well as anything else available. I’ve tried 200 hard cast from Underwood (split cases) and Grizzly Cartridge (keyholing) with poor results. This with G20 factory barrel and a Brownells (conventional rifling) threaded barrel.

Care to elaborate on what your "poor results" were?

[msstate56]

Care to elaborate on what your "poor results" were?

The Underwood 200 HC exhibited poor accuracy, as in 6-8” groups at 25 yards, and had two split cases. They promptly exchanged the ammo for 140 penetrators at my request.

The Grizzly Cartridge experience has been awful. I ordered a 200 round case of 200 WFNGC (the key here being the G and C for “Gas Check”). This load would lead up the barrel with only 4-5 shots. Out of 10 shots- 2-3 would be in the black of a B8, 3-4 scattered all over the 8 and 7 rings, and 2-3 not even on paper. I finally noticed bullets keyholing and some hitting completely sideways. I decided to pull a few bullets. No gas checks on the bullets. Multiple calls and emails to Grizzly have gone unanswered.