S&W 686 old school safety mod?

[Duces Tecum]

Yes, he says he regrets the laser engraving which was added years later.

Was alcohol involved?

[BillSWPA]

Bill Jordan advocated leaving the holster unsnapped the vast majority of the time, snapping the strap over the hammer if it became necessary to run, climb a boxcar, etc. His position was that there will always be time to snap a strap over the gun before physical activity, but not always time to unsnap when the gun was needed. His explanation is in his book, No Second Place Winner.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chuck Whitlock]

Bill Jordan advocated leaving the holster unsnapped the vast majority of the time, snapping the strap over the hammer if it became necessary to run, climb a boxcar, etc. His position was that there will always be time to snap a strap over the gun before physical activity, but not always time to unsnap when the gun was needed. His explanation is in his book, No Second Place Winner.

He also advocated wet molding the leather holster to the handgun.

[Dagga Boy]

Bill Jordan advocated leaving the holster unsnapped the vast majority of the time, snapping the strap over the hammer if it became necessary to run, climb a boxcar, etc. His position was that there will always be time to snap a strap over the gun before physical activity, but not always time to unsnap when the gun was needed. His explanation is in his book, No Second Place Winner.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And, he was wrong. A lot of guys found out when they were getting the tar kicked out of them that there was no time to snap their gun in. They also found that the thumb breaks were easily defeated on a frontal attack. Additionally, the extreme angle of a “Jordan style” holster also put the wrist in an unlocked position on the draw that was also a bunch of suck when entangled and hard to work from in extreme close quarters.
Keep in mind that Bill Jordan was fricking huge, had massive hands, shot all the time (not like he was playing golf), and was from an era and agency where at the time you didn’t have too much tolerance for any resistance from those they were dealing with. Part of some of the “glory days” was that society was intolerant of resistance and cops could actually use a great deal of force to overcome it. That really changed after the Sagon Penn case in San Diego that really ushered in some real issues.

[Inspector71]

Brings back memories. I carried the issued S&W model 15 in a Jordan style holster from 1979 to the mid 80's. Very popular holster back then. Always carried it with the strap behind the hammer and snapped in. Got two autographed copies of his book. From time to time, pull that book from the shelf and thumb through it.

[Dagga Boy]

This thread brought up some dinner conversation with Tom Givens last night. It gets back to changes in LE tactics along with training over the years. One key was the gun in your hand. It was common to have your revolver in your hand behind your leg on the approach to every traffic stop you made at night in many areas. It was basically how night stops were done in my early years. Think about this today. Tom noted they were getting 30 ND's with Revolvers a year (that was reported...the real number is definitely deeper). I cannot imagine those numbers with your typical cops these days walking up to every single night stop drawing and then bolstering there pistols on every stop. Guns were in hand far more in the earlier years of my career than my later ones, and I would imagine even less now with far less proactive work being done. Stuff changes, the LE world is also very slow to change with it.

[Hambo]

Part of some of the “glory days” was that society was intolerant of resistance and cops could actually use a great deal of force to overcome it.

To illustrate this point, the guys I met who had started in the '40s and '50s had two methods of dealing with resistance: KO with sap/stick and bullets. They were OK with either one. One of them said he shot three burglars running from a commercial building. No chase, one warning, then shots fired and three suspects down. Try that today.

As DB says, different world with guns out and pointed at a lot of people. I also recall a neighboring department officer who had one hand on a suspect and .38 in the other, who ND'ed said .38 into the suspect and killed him. This occurred near the end of the revolver era. IIRC the suspect family got some money and the officer got some sort of disciplinary action. Again, think about what would happen today.

[Lyonsgrid]

This thread brought up some dinner conversation with Tom Givens last night. It gets back to changes in LE tactics along with training over the years. One key was the gun in your hand. It was common to have your revolver in your hand behind your leg on the approach to every traffic stop you made at night in many areas. It was basically how night stops were done in my early years. Think about this today. Tom noted they were getting 30 ND's with Revolvers a year (that was reported...the real number is definitely deeper). I cannot imagine those numbers with your typical cops these days walking up to every single night stop drawing and then bolstering there pistols on every stop. Guns were in hand far more in the earlier years of my career than my later ones, and I would imagine even less now with far less proactive work being done. Stuff changes, the LE world is also very slow to change with it.

That's some great insight DB. I've been reading this book, Street Survival (1980) to learn a lot about how tactics, mindset and equipment have changed over the years. This picture, from the book, supports your point about gun in hand on traffic stops.

Attachment 21089

Attachment 21090

[tanner]

Stuff changes, the LE world is also very slow to change with it.

When I came on, there were still a few Vietnam era guys working. Shooting at car thieves was a weekly occurrence back in the day.

And I worked with a guy who shot his own foot while on a traffic stop, reholstering while dealing with an unruly female motorist. He would refer to it as the shooting he was in... (insert headdesk emoji here)

[Jim Watson]

To illustrate this point, the guys I met who had started in the '40s and '50s had two methods of dealing with resistance: KO with sap/stick and bullets. They were OK with either one. .

I recall one of Joseph Wambaugh's 1970 New Centurions characters telling a rookie "You have a stick and you have a gun and you don't have to lay your hands on anybody."
No doubt based on his experience in LAPD.