To "safety" or not?

[holmes168]

Just do a simple risk assessment on not putting your weapon on safe. Low probability of discharge, thankfully I've never has a ND. However- there could be a catastrophic result if that low probability occurs.

Once at band camp, well Iraq, a 20 year Sergeant Major and I were walking back from dinner. In a split second he was on the ground and I was checking for a hole in my chest. Some idiot on a guard tower didn't have their safety on and shot on the inside of our FOB. Thankfully the round didn't hit anyone, but crap happens.

I've never shot a competition and would like to try it just to see how I do. I will always decock or safe my pistol. The severity of what could happen isn't worth .25 seconds.

[PNWTO]

... I would benefit from reading your explanation.

So many here can probably explain this more eloquently, like the latest post by @Mr Pink, but I'll take a swing:

The Glocks have some existing safeties engineered into them. I would also hope they are holstered. I would say an unholstered SFA pistol is just as dangerous as a rifle on "fire". Ceteris paribus. But the pistol can be holstered and rifle can be safed.

Via training, repetitions, and perhaps arcane sacrifice to the dark gods one may be able to bring the AR into action while taking the weapon off safe simultaneously. I have seen this drilled into Marine recruits in large numbers very quickly, so perhaps a good instructor with an appropriately sized class may have a snowball's chance in hell of imparting the same. Enabling/disabling the safety doesn't cost any time as you can do so while moving or bringing the rifle up in position. This is solely a matter of training/experience vs conjecture and I do not understand how you think you have a better scenario or idea than members here who have OIS/combat lessons learned the hard way combined with years of other experiences. Not to mention there is not one trainer of note who advises leaving the gun off safe for anything but actual operation of the weapon. I'll leave this here and hopefully more insight is offered by other members. I would read @Tom_Jones post carefully and read more, post less, train more, gain more. I know the below article is not regarding your hypothetical but the take-aways are the same. I'm also not really interested in any replies you may have as they will pollute what has been a clarity generating thread for some.

Hypothetical question; if you and I were in a gunfight at mid-range and I had to do a rifle mag change from behind cover and then move behind you with a ‘hot’ gun, would you want my rifle to be on ‘Safe’?

There is only one correct answer. It would be negligent to move in close quarters with another with the rifle on ‘Fire’.

Therefore, when we practice mag changes, whether on a bolt lock or tac reload, we should throw the rifle on ‘Safe’.

This should be a subconscious level driven task. It should be rehearsed in training for the appropriate amount of meaningful repetitions to the point of ‘automaticity’.

When I hear guys say that it is not necessary to throw the weapon on safe during a reload, I am hearing them say “I am fucking lazy.” “I do not want to perform the proper amount of repetitions to ensure that this is an intuitive level task.”

Putting the rifle on ‘Safe’ during a reload, when done right, will not slow you down so it won’t become a disabler. This can only be an enabler.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/07/30...t-mcnamara-36/

[BehindBlueI's]

I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out. One reason is the clunk sound of decocking; another is having the weapon momentarily disabled and then having to shoot double action when I fired again. If a guy swore on a stack of bibles that he would decock under these circumstances, I would not call him a fibber, I would merely keep my mouth shut and nod in awe at this pistol expert and walk away.

The sound is irrelevant, the gun is not disabled, and if you can't shoot DA either practice more or ditch the gun for life saving events until you can.

Pnwto, your opinion is welcome and respected. My comment about the long gun and no safety on pertained to a hypothetical situation wherein somebody had entered my residence. At this time my wife and I retreated to our bedroom and locked the door, called the police, and waited for help. I have my AR and two Glock 19s. The AR safety is off. Now what do I do about my Glock 19s which have live rounds in the chamber? Note that they and the AR are hot. Are the Glocks not as dangerous as is the AR with the safety off? On the AR the trigger pull is heavier than the Glocks' trigger pulls. I'm confused about the logic of telling me that while I sit in my bedroom during the time that a burglar is pillaging my house, and I have three weapons--two without a safety and one with--that it is unsafe to keep the AR in the unsafe condition but OK to have the Glocks loaded in condition one. If you can explain the difference, I would benefit from reading your explanation.

The Glock only has one condition. The AR has two (safe/unsafe). If you run the gun differently at different times under different circumstances you will not subconsciously know the condition of your weapon. This will lead to either pulling a dead trigger when you want a bang or leaving the gun off safe when you thought it was safe, and since rifles don't have holsters that cover the trigger, it's not as safe as a striker fired gun.

The issue is easily overcome with training and reps. I do not remember ever manipulating my safety, but I was able to shoot when I needed to and afterward the gun was on safe both before and after, including while moving cover to cover to get in position. It doesn't cost any time to manipulate the safety, it's part of the decision making process.

So, its a matter of habit. I run the gun the same if I'm in training or real world, stationary or moving, etc. The gun becomes an extension of me and I know where it is and what condition it is just as well as I know where my hand is and if it's open or closed. As such, and because I do not have exceptions, I never pull a dead trigger because I thought this was one of those times that I left the safety off. It's also why I ditched my AK and only have AR platform rifles now. The fewer things to think about, the better, and when shit hits the fan there's a lot to think about.

I don't play competition games, so I've no input there.

[Mr Pink]

Perhaps you were smoking people that were lesser shooters than yourself...
With a 1911 there is no time penalty for clicking off/on to your heart's desire, but with an M9 ??

As i said in matches, I was doing it without knowing because of proper training, it was a subconscious action. I can run a stage over and over again with and without decocking and based off of the times, you wouldn't be able to tell difference. The timer don't lie.

The problem here is that you're trying to compare those trained to those who aren't. If you were to train yourself to decock, then you'd be just as fast doing it that way. The reality is that you wouldn't go through process of doing that since you probably have other priorities. Additionally, I don't think you fully read or understood my last post.

[spinmove_]

Pnwto, your opinion is welcome and respected. My comment about the long gun and no safety on pertained to a hypothetical situation wherein somebody had entered my residence. At this time my wife and I retreated to our bedroom and locked the door, called the police, and waited for help. I have my AR and two Glock 19s. The AR safety is off. Now what do I do about my Glock 19s which have live rounds in the chamber? Note that they and the AR are hot. Are the Glocks not as dangerous as is the AR with the safety off? On the AR the trigger pull is heavier than the Glocks' trigger pulls. I'm confused about the logic of telling me that while I sit in my bedroom during the time that a burglar is pillaging my house, and I have three weapons--two without a safety and one with--that it is unsafe to keep the AR in the unsafe condition but OK to have the Glocks loaded in condition one. If you can explain the difference, I would benefit from reading your explanation.

Well, as others have stated, the Glocks only have one condition. They also have a longer, heavier, and more deliberate trigger press than an AR. They also go into a holster when not being used.

The AR has a shorter, lighter trigger press. It gets no holster, but gets a sling.

It’s been stated many times and many ways, but if it has a safety and/or decocker, when the shooter breaks presentation, it gets actuated. It’s not hard, nor does it cost any time, it’s simply proper and safe operation of the firearm. When we’re talking about using something that could end a life in the blink of an eye and mistakes can be made just as fast, I’ll take the additional layers of safety if available.

Your house, Your rules, and if that’s how you run it, good luck. But you won’t find me nor hardly anyone else here condoning that practice. If the Glocks had a safety (a la M&P) you can bet that I’d be putting them on safe up until the point I was presenting and on target and only then they’d come off safe. As soon as I break presentation, it’d be back on safe.

I have an AR. It’s on safe, in the safe, as I write this. I also have a Mossberg 500 that I use almost exclusively for clays. It’s put on safe whenever I don’t have the gun mounted, and yes, that includes between pairs. I also have a Tikka T3x in the safe. It’s completely unloaded with an empty magazine. It has a safety. It’s currently engaged.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[willie]

Tom, I see your point, which is indeed valid. I even had my opinion swayed to some extent. And you don't do that bad a job as a mod. No complaints here.

[YVK]

As an example, watch Frank Proctor shoot. His safety discipline is amazing. Yes, he's a USPSA GM, but he's also a Special Forces soldier, so you'll see him put in on safe before he moves.

Interestingly, the only USPSA videos of Frank's that I could find, he was shooting a regular M&P. I wouldn't want to make any inferences on a limited info and without a context. That said, on a face value one could say that Frank, despite his SF roots, didn't seem to be that concerned about getting gun on safe before moving in a gaming environment. M&P with thumb safety is just easy to get as one without. I can't really guess the answer, but if engaging a safety on before moving in all circumstances is considered a sign of a pro, and he is a pro, then why would he not choose a M&P variant with thumb safety when it is otherwise identical to the one without?

[Mr Pink]

Interestingly, the only USPSA videos of Frank's that I could find, he was shooting a regular M&P. I wouldn't want to make any inferences on a limited info and without a context. That said, on a face value one could say that Frank, despite his SF roots, didn't seem to be that concerned about getting gun on safe before moving in a gaming environment. M&P with thumb safety is just easy to get as one without. I can't really guess the answer, but if engaging a safety on before moving in all circumstances is considered a sign of a pro, and he is a pro, then why would he not choose a M&P variant with thumb safety when it is otherwise identical to the one without?

Sorry I wasn't more specific, but I was referring to his use of the AR.
Second, in regards to sign of a pro, I wasn't referring to anyone's choice of firearm, only how they were trained. I'm not sure how that was taken out of context.
Third, I can tell you that as a person who was trained to decock/safe, that it doesn't make a rats as on my time during a stage. Again, the timer doesn't lie. Take any GM or M class shooter that was trained to decock first and you'll see no difference. I'm only a "M" class, but as I said before, I was initially trained to decock and spent a lot of time doing that as military person, so when I shot matches, I'd subconsciously do it. Many folks make a big deal about perceptions of time, just like what order to shoot a stage in. Many times that doesn't matter, but folks still argue over it, when the overall time is roughly the same.

[Mr Pink]

I initially started this as a way to get feedback on manipulating the AR or Carbine's safety before moving in a defensive environment. Not entirely off topic it has moved into USPSA with carbine and even the pistol. As a self proclaimed "Tactical Timmy", but also a production "M" class shooter in USPSA, I believe there is value in this discussion and a lot can be learned from the competition world.

One important thing I've learned from competition is efficiency and economy of motion are always stressed (and rightfully so). That being said, I can see how someone would think putting a carbine on safe would be slower. The issue here is that some folks have been trained to be just as efficient putting the firearm on safe, as not. If you're not trained that way, then YOU won't have the same times. Additionally, I'm not saying a competitor should decock, but I'm also saying you shouldn't poo poo on someone who has been trained that way.

I was always taught the most efficient pistol reload is "high" in front of the face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE
But are we to argue the supposedly less efficient technique from a guy who has a proven winning track record?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-Dhe66cAk
Bottom line is that what appears to be less efficient isn't always true and training prevails.

In regards to the pistol, I am in no way advocating one pistol over the other, nor saying that you're more of a "pro" because you shoot pistol X over pistol Z. When I was issued a Beretta, I shot Beretta in competition, and the same was true with Glock and Sig (I shot competition with it what I carried). Now I just shoot Glock, because it's the cheapest for me to shoot and they're everywhere.

[TiroFijo]

With long guns, there is nothing to argue about. Main topic here.

I was just saying that regarding pistols, a very high percentage of pro users have glocks/striker guns, so the debate kinda goes into a grey zone.