To "safety" or not?

[Sal Picante]

Had a longish response typed up the other night, then we had to go help on an OIS ... someone jumped on my computer and it went away.

I've gone to the Off Target - On Safe / On Target & Shooting - Off Safe model. That was based on instruction & commentary from the guys advocating it, reinforced by looking at previous (& recent) L/E negligent shootings where weapons weren't safed when off target & there were lousy outcomes. Fortunately, shotguns & ARs can be easily modified ton suppert left handers who prefer it. I'd made this switch when I still carried a 1911, applied with a M&P but not so much with the Glock .

Had a number of longer discussion with Paul Sharp 'bout this regarding decocking a 92 in usage. We differed in what we said/understood, but I think that is because my background is with USPSA.
In gun games, the stages are so short that the "engagement" tends to roll right along the end of the stage. If you're doing it right, there is hardly a moment where you're off the trigger.

It is interesting that in some more of the defensive shooting classes I've taken, I tend to decock not even knowing it... E.g. when he gun comes back to "ready", it just sorta ends up decocked.

MikeC mentioned that this is a discussion worth having. I agree...

[JodyH]

Look... I agree that people should safe the rifle. However, I guarantee you that in this 90% volunteer sport, 90% of the RO's aren't going to be able to spot it and apply it in a uniform manner.

Again, USPSA != training/real life/etc. People do stupid things all the time: shoot sub 1# triggers, use Race holsters, don't decock/safe while moving with a pistol with a lighter trigger than a rifle, etc... I dunno... Just a game.

That's what I meant by my post.
Enforcing it would be easy the first match, just DQ everybody.
Next match... 90% of the shooters wouldn't come back, so enforcement would be even easier.
Third match... "hey where'd all the shooters go?", I guess we can pack up and go home early today.

[Sal Picante]

That's what I meant by my post.
Enforcing it would be easy the first match, just DQ everybody.
Next match... 90% of the shooters wouldn't come back, so enforcement would be even easier.
Third match... "hey where'd all the shooters go?", I guess we can pack up and go home early today.

That may be "a solution", but not much fun... Thanks for rebirth of 3-gun nation...

[JodyH]

That may be "a solution", but not much fun... Thanks for rebirth of 3-gun nation...

"Muzzle and finger" is all that's needed to have a safe match with consistent enforcement of safety violations.
Anything else becomes subjective and requires too much of the already taxed RO's attention.
It's hard enough chasing a shooter through a stage while watching their muzzle direction, finger position, listening for squibs and Virginia count rounds fired, using your peripheral vision to watch for rules conformance (shooting positions, target engagement, fault lines etc.) range failures and looking out for random people wandering into the shooting area all while trying not to trip and fall or run into the shooter.

[TiroFijo]

Why would you be so anal in competition about decocking, when there are so many glocks and similar striker guns that don't even have that option?

[Sal Picante]

Why would you be so anal in competition about decocking, when there are so many glocks and similar striker guns that don't even have that option?

I'm not... Some folks like the gun decocked when there is no clear engagement... I kinda get it.

[YVK]

I get what your saying but it’s pretty simple. Movement is not subjective. Your feet shift place, you take so much as a step, skip, hop or whatever that is movement.

Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.

In gun games, the stages are so short that the "engagement" tends to roll right along the end of the stage. If you're doing it right, there is hardly a moment where you're off the trigger.

With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

[Redhat]

Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.



With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

Good question

In your scenario why would you need to move those 5-8 steps?

[YVK]

To give yourself a better shooting position. You know where the opponents are and where you gonna be shooting at after you took your 8 steps. You need to clear a barricade, or just advance on, or whatever other reason

[El Cid]

Movement or not is binary but target engagement isn't, as Les pointed out below.



With the exception of very long stages, when I get off an array I have to reload (Production) and nobody that I know of says to safe or decock before doing a speed reload. If I did everything right, once I am done reloading, I should be in a position to be aiming and shooting again. I don't really see where the time for safe or decock comes in.

In regards to games vs not games, here is my honest question to those who are in the know about real life: if you had to engage 16 actively shooting adversaries in four known locations, each location separated by 5-8 steps, would you put your rifle on safe making those steps, or would you have come into those positions with rifle shouldered, off safe and ready to shoot as soon as you saw a sight picture?

Speed reloads with a handgun, no. But then you can't safe a 1911 or decock a Sig with the slide locked to the rear. With an AR - yessir, every time.

As for your threat scenario, yes I'd safe the rifle if I'm moving and don't have a sight picture.

The people I usually see balk at safing an AR are people who aren't comfortable enough with it. This is most often from a lack of training. If you practice enough it won't slow you down and you'll do it so quickly and efficiently that its second nature. I've told this story before, but many years ago my carry gun was my only gun. It was a 1911 pattern pistol (P14-45) and I carried it in a holster with a thumb break. A buddy had a Sig 226 and open top holster. He kept telling me I was going to get myself killed because the manual safety and thumb break made me so slow. Knowing I practice dry and live fire significantly more than him we had his wife say "when" at the range. I smoked him every time.

Bottom line is if we master our weapon we will amaze ourselves with what we can do.