Yes I would.Originally Posted by YVK
Yes I would.
This would be a hell of a lot easier to explain in person but I will do my best so please bear with me. When you cutout the rest of my post it is taken a bit out of context. There is a difference in shooting stationary working a piece of cover and shooting on the move, or just moving. What Les is talking about is shooting on the move/into,out of position while targets are visible and reloading on the move. Not the same thing as running from one piece of cover to another while not actively engaging a target. Bottom line is if you aren't actively engaging a target and have time to move and do a, "speed reload" then you have the time to flip the safety on while bringing the gun into your work space and move to advance your position. Time penalty is negligible the risks are not. If you are talking about a slide lock/emergency reload that is a little different, in the context of a rifle I transition to secondary if threat is imminent, if it's a pistol I work the slide lock reload and won't fuck with a safety because I need bullets RFN. So these are two totally different animals.
To answer your question I would back the hell up and CAS that shit (seriously). On the other hand if we are talking about real world experience I have never encounter a situation anywhere near what you are describing inside a building but what I can tell you and what I have experienced is that I have been trained to keep my weapon on safe, finger off the trigger, (in hard register, thank you SN) until sights are on target and I've made the conscious decision to fire. This happened every time under stress without a conscious thought. Any time me and mine rolled into a hot building with people inside actively trying to kill us my weapon was on safe until I had a target in my sights period every time without exception. My weapon wasn't on semi standing in the hallway waiting to enter a room knowing someone was in there waiting to shoot us, it was on safe, (you frag that shit first anyways if wall structure makes it possible). My weapon was on safe even when at high ready covering my guys while making entry, or in a rolling T down the hall while clearing, or stacked up, same when HI/LOing a corner/pieing or whatever. Every member of my fire team, then my squad and later my platoon was the exact same way. If you are talking about the transition between two or three targets in the same area the answer is it depends. If I am engaging a target, then another presents itself and I don't have to skirt a NS/Civilian or a squad member then no. If I have to skirt a NS/Civilian or a squad member then I will be moving to provide a better vantage point and I sure as shit will safe my weapon or at least attempt to in the process, (I have never encountered this specifically but this is how I was trained). If I am breaking line of sight with a threat or target and moving, even five to eight steps my weapon goes back on safe. It happened every time because that's how I was trained. In tight quarters and in a team based environment bad shit can happen. Keeping your weapon on safe and thumb riding up the safety when not in use mitigates a lot of risk.
I realize that some of this might come off as dickish, it's not intended as such. I do have some pretty stern feelings regarding these things as I have on more that one occasion born witness to FF incidents.
Last edited by Mike C; 10-23-2017 at 10:44 PM.
I don't feel like I'm in a position to tell others what to do or why but I personally have a thing where as I come off the target with an AR I say to myself (sometimes very quickly) "it's safe to go forward". When I run that program I flip the safety selector forward with my thumb and then I can go forward, on safe.
I realize that is pretty dorky but it's how I originally adapted to the idea and now I can't stop.
I just did a carbine course - which I almost never do, like once every five years never - and I realized that even when doing weird movement stuff that I am really not used to, the program would just automatically run every time I came off the target. And personally I found it reassuring.
I definitely can't speak to USPSA type environments but at the speed I personally go with an AR, it takes me more time to shoulder the gun from high ready than I need to run the selector switch.
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https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff
This may depend on the location and sport - I've come across stages with significant movement between shooting areas. (Let's say 5 to 10 meters or more - sometimes much more, especially with our local military 3 gun. Those guys love to put sprints into their stages.) Sometimes this movement takes place over broken ground.
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Good post, Mike.
I won't speak for Les but from my prospective of specifically competition shooting, I usually have four-five steps to get a reload done and get my gun back up and start actively aiming at the target, sometimes before I even see it open, while trying to stabilize gun. I see up to mid level A shooters fail to do that pretty regularly even without flipping safety on. This results into people arriving to a position and then starting shooting as opposed to shooting as you're getting there. Sometimes this results in being at a next position and not having a gun reloaded since many people can cover 5 steps in one second but not too many can reload a gun in one second, especially when moving. Adding two additional mental tasks is going to cost time in such cases.
As far as non-competition situation, all I can say is an admission: if I knew that I'd be shooting at multiple hostiles, known direction, within next 1.5-2 seconds, I am nearly certain I won't safe my gun. In fact, if it was on safe, I'd probably disengage the safety. I am not saying it is a right thing to do and I certainly not backing it up by any authority. Like many here, I trained with number of dudes who taught safety on unless sights are on. If situation lacks certainty and immediacy and I am just moving, I am sure I would decock, make it safe and all of that. But I were facing a certain and immediate contact in a known direction within few steps/seconds, I doubt I would have a will power not to flip the safety off. Again, this is just an admission, not a statement of correct actions.
Last edited by YVK; 10-24-2017 at 12:11 AM.
Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.
I understand why shooters decock pistols like B92's in competition, but I can't comprehend doing the same when engaging a real live target in a house or building after I had fired the weapon, missed, or wounded the person and was still looking for him or waiting to be sought out. One reason is the clunk sound of decocking; another is having the weapon momentarily disabled and then having to shoot double action when I fired again. If a guy swore on a stack of bibles that he would decock under these circumstances, I would not call him a fibber, I would merely keep my mouth shut and nod in awe at this pistol expert and walk away.
I really don't see anyone decocking a pistol in competition. Ever. That said, I can see quite a few people decocking in your scenario...
Let's turn this around for a sec, though: Would you "safe" a rifle in this situation? I suspect I would...
No, I would not, but must admit I have no formal training. Doing so would be counter intuitive. Anyway, at this stage of the game, for me the debate is what I'd do in my house where only my wife and I reside. I would let the police clear my house, and while waiting for them, my wife and I would be in the same room. One they arrived the weapons would go on safe and at the appropriate time laid down if they directed me to do so.
Last edited by willie; 10-24-2017 at 02:38 AM.
It's not a matter of being an expert. It is a matter of hardwiring solid and safe habits when dismounting a gun. If you look through some of @Dagga Boy's posts you will see some examples of dismounting a pistol and subconsciously decocking the gun under stress before the conscious thought arrived to do so. He did this while working in LE and has laid out other excellent examples of his officers doing similar things during and post shooting. There are more from other posters as well who work LE here on this forum. All of what we are discussing here is a matter of good training habits and reps nothing more, there isn't some magical or secret sauce unless you count hard work as such.
"Real world"... situation dependent.
"Competition"... situation dependent.
Like pretty much every other tactic.
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