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Thread: How often do you interact with people with mental issues?

  1. #21
    As Lon stated, we very rarely commit anyone does not meet specific criteria. I've been a CIT officer for many years and there are specific reasons we commit over not commit. Sometimes they are still out just as fast because they know how to game the system and the doctors. The doctors don't know how they were acting outside in front of us, all they have is a piece of paper with a few sentences on it from one or us, that against a live person in front of them clearly acting differently may push the doctors into a different direction.

    We've had incidents where we commit for suicidal behavior, like literally trying jump off a bridge, run into traffic, take pills to OD and once even try suicide by police. The doctors let them go after they act through any questions and then commit suicide very shortly afterwards. "Shit happens" is what I've been told in these circumstances, which just means the doctors didn't believe what we wrote and that's why what happened, happened.
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  2. #22
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    As Lon stated, we very rarely commit anyone does not meet specific criteria. I've been a CIT officer for many years and there are specific reasons we commit over not commit. Sometimes they are still out just as fast because they know how to game the system and the doctors. The doctors don't know how they were acting outside in front of us, all they have is a piece of paper with a few sentences on it from one or us, that against a live person in front of them clearly acting differently may push the doctors into a different direction.

    We've had incidents where we commit for suicidal behavior, like literally trying jump off a bridge, run into traffic, take pills to OD and once even try suicide by police. The doctors let them go after they act through any questions and then commit suicide very shortly afterwards. "Shit happens" is what I've been told in these circumstances, which just means the doctors didn't believe what we wrote and that's why what happened, happened.
    Obviously it's hard to speak to specifics, and I would be lying if I said that there were no incompetent physicians or nurses out there, but from my end I've seen even veteran ER physicians struggle to get psych to admit patients to their service. Psych is incredibly overworked and understaffed for the volume of patients they get, and sometimes they triage based on their best assessment of an incomplete picture in a way that produces less than satisfying outcomes.

    At the end of the day, they need a place to go, and if there aren't enough beds to go around then it doesn't matter whether or not they believe you, or me, or the patient themselves. They'll end up right back out in the streets.

    If you're into long, dry, position statements, this is a good read, as is this powerpoint.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 10-17-2017 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Obviously it's hard to speak to specifics, and I would be lying if I said that there were no incompetent physicians or nurses out there, but from my end I've seen even veteran ER physicians struggle to get psych to admit patients to their service. Psych is incredibly overworked and understaffed for the volume of patients they get, and sometimes they triage based on their best assessment of an incomplete picture in a way that produces less than satisfying outcomes.

    At the end of the day, they need a place to go, and if there aren't enough beds to go around then it doesn't matter whether or not they believe you, or me, or the patient themselves. They'll end up right back out in the streets.

    If you're into long, dry, position statements, this is a good read, as is this powerpoint.
    I am not blaming them, although it may sound like it, I am simply stating my experience as I see it.

    I don't want to see and/or deal with these people so I am totally for them getting the help they need. The system is really messed up and no one wants to fix/change it.
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  4. #24
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I am not blaming them, although it may sound like it, I am simply stating my experience as I see it.

    I don't want to see and/or deal with these people so I am totally for them getting the help they need. The system is really messed up and no one wants to fix/change it.
    Totally fair. I really appreciate your perspective (and Lon's, and others'). It seems especially shitty that as LEOs this job has fallen on you, and especially awful that it is the kneejerk reaction to blame LE each time it leads to the lawful use of force. The reaction seems to always be "more police training!" which doesn't solve the problem that crazy people are crazy, and that we let them run around free in society without giving them the care they really need. They aren't getting it in the community, they won't get it in the ER, and until we find a way to fund and staff more inpatient mental health facilities, most of those in need likely won't be getting it there either.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    Totally fair. I really appreciate your perspective (and Lon's, and others'). It seems especially shitty that as LEOs this job has fallen on you, and especially awful that it is the kneejerk reaction to blame LE each time it leads to the lawful use of force. The reaction seems to always be "more police training!" which doesn't solve the problem that crazy people are crazy, and that we let them run around free in society without giving them the care they really need. They aren't getting it in the community, they won't get it in the ER, and until we find a way to fund and staff more inpatient mental health facilities, most of those in need likely won't be getting it there either.
    As far as "more training" is concerned I've got all the CIT and related training which have come down through the years. I've talked and handled some serious unstable people but regardless of all of that when one the mentally unstable types goes off there isn't much any training will do. It often falls to street LEOs to take action and these people have a propensity to attack us or target us, this is always seen negatively when we use (lawful) force to stop the threat.

    Beyond all that, it's the same reason I'll always narcan an OD and rush to get there, it's still a person and I, fortunately or unfortunately, give a shit.
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  6. #26
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Beyond all that, it's the same reason I'll always narcan an OD and rush to get there, it's still a person and I, fortunately or unfortunately, give a shit.
    Amen. Ironically, you care far more any knee-jerk liberal who would tear you down if you ever had to use lethal force during a CIT call. It's easy to cast stones when you have no skin in the game.

    In many ways our society is getting the governance that it deserves... it's just not fair to the rest of us.

  7. #27
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    3 pages and not a single "I'm married to a redhead and I go to work to get away from the crazy".

    It's not uncommon for us to re-arrest recently released patients in the hospital parking lot. Most of them have some serious issues, are "stabilized" and get booted for not having insurance coverage.

    Our CIT calls are a 4 officer and a supervisor response, if an arrest is involved it's a two man transport and at least an hour and a half getting them into a facility and at least an hour of paperwork. It's at least one contact a day and probably 15-20 hours of a 40 hour work week.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
    3 pages and not a single "I'm married to a redhead and I go to work to get away from the crazy".

    It's not uncommon for us to re-arrest recently released patients in the hospital parking lot. Most of them have some serious issues, are "stabilized" and get booted for not having insurance coverage.

    Our CIT calls are a 4 officer and a supervisor response, if an arrest is involved it's a two man transport and at least an hour and a half getting them into a facility and at least an hour of paperwork. It's at least one contact a day and probably 15-20 hours of a 40 hour work week.
    Why so many people?

    For us a CIT officer is it, just need one more for transport and that's it. Even if an arrest, even if there's force used.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Why so many people?

    For us a CIT officer is it, just need one more for transport and that's it. Even if an arrest, even if there's force used.
    Because that's the policy. The powers that be somehow concluded that the ridiculous 5 man takedown from the CIT training meant that we needed 4 officers and a supervisor at every CIT call.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  10. #30
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    War Story Time

    We had a patient in the facility one night in a wheel chair. Both legs broken and he was in recovery. It turned out that he had tied a noose around his neck and jumped off a bridge without measuring the rope! The rope was too long and he broke his legs when he hit the ground.

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