The PF ICE (gas engine) generator thread

[NH Shooter]

https://westinghouseoutdoorpower.com...2000-generator

• 12,000 running watts/15,000 peak
• <5% THD

I've also had one of these Reliance Controls 50-amp transfer switches sitting on the shelf for years;



Up to this point, I've relied on an older 120/240v 60hz version of this 5000 watt generator which was woefully under-powered for what I'm trying to keep running. Here's what I want to run without having to jockey circuit breakers;

• one 3/4 HP submersible well pump
• two refrigerator/freezers
• one oil-fired boiler for heating and hot water (one oil burner motor, four circulator pump motors)
• enough lights and outlets to keep the essentials running

The primary challenge with this load are all the motors and start-up current required, the well pump being the most substantial which I calculated at 4500 watts. This does not include a 2.5 ton mini-split system that I want to be able to power, so this new generator was sized to carry that as well. We have an attached garage where the generator is stored, and when needed I wheel it out to the driveway and run it there. When I go to bed the generator is shut down and pulled back into the garage. Luckily we have a wood burning stove which keeps the house comfortable, and plenty of flashlights. :-)

FWIW, we lost power twice this winter, both times for over 24 hours. The first time was Christmas Eve with visiting family in the house. These power outages are usually due to ice or heavy snow taking down trees, which then take down power lines, are not uncommon here and occur every winter.

I'll post some photos in the coming weeks once I have all of it installed

[HeavyDuty]

https://westinghouseoutdoorpower.com...2000-generator

• 12,000 running watts/15,000 peak
• <5% THD

I've also had one of these Reliance Controls 50-amp transfer switches sitting on the shelf for years;



Up to this point, I've relied on an older 120/240v 60hz version of this 5000 watt generator which was woefully under-powered for what I'm trying to keep running. Here's what I want to run without having to jockey circuit breakers;

• one 3/4 HP submersible well pump
• two refrigerator/freezers
• one oil-fired boiler for heating and hot water (one oil burner motor, four circulator pump motors)
• enough lights and outlets to keep the essentials running

The primary challenge with this load are all the motors and start-up current required, the well pump being the most substantial which I calculated at 4500 watts. This does not include a 2.5 ton mini-split system that I want to be able to power, so this new generator was sized to carry that as well. We have an attached garage where the generator is stored, and when needed I wheel it out to the driveway and run it there. When I go to bed the generator is shut down and pulled back into the garage. Luckily we have a wood burning stove which keeps the house comfortable, and plenty of flashlights. :-)

FWIW, we lost power twice this winter, both times for over 24 hours. The first time was Christmas Eve with visiting family in the house. These power outages are usually due to ice or heavy snow taking down trees, which then take down power lines, are not uncommon here and occur every winter.

I'll post some photos in the coming weeks once I have all of it installed

We used to see a lot of generators stolen right from peoples driveways while running - you may want to put a chain “leash” on it just to scare off the opportunistic jamoches.

[NH Shooter]

Our main panel has 21 single-pole (120v) circuits and four double-pole (240v) circuits. The transfer panel has a single 240v circuit and eight 120v circuits. So the task today was to (1) identify which critical-use and commonly-used circuits we would power with the generator and (2) balance the loads of those circuits on the transfer panel.

Of course I could use a simple transfer switch on the #4 wire 200-amp service line and power the entire main panel with the generator. The cost is about the same but I decided to roll with the transfer panel (multiple breaker-protected circuits) for the ability to balance the load on the generator. Additionally, being able to transfer a single circuit at a time to the generator (while leaving the rest connected to the main) is a major plus for me, as is being able to read the wattage on each leg via the panel gauges when the generator is supplying the power.

The map looks good. With the exception of one "luxury" circuit (split-ductless heat pump for A/C), I have all of the critical circuits connected to the transfer panel: well pump, refrigerators, heating system, hot water and critical kitchen circuits). The remaining transfer panel circuit breakers are delegated to other commonly used circuits. There are few gaps in the coverage, but the map worked out better than expected and the load is well within the generator's rated output.

However, the lack of A/C is a not-so-minor problem: my wife is an ice woman. To put this in context, we don't air-condition in the summer - we refrigerate. There is no way I could not have A/C available if we were to lose power in the summer (even though a rare occurrence for us). The solution is an additional single-circuit transfer switch to handle the A/C circuit, taking back-up power from the generator's L14-30R 240v 30-amp receptacle, while using the 14-50R 240v 50-amp receptacle to power the transfer panel. The additional A/C load maxes out the generator, so load management will be more important (the alternator has a main 50-amp breaker).

This generator stuff is fun.

[LittleLebowski]

Our main panel has 21 single-pole (120v) circuits and four double-pole (240v) circuits. The transfer panel has a single 240v circuit and eight 120v circuits. So the task today was to (1) identify which critical-use and commonly-used circuits we would power with the generator and (2) balance the loads of those circuits on the transfer panel.

Of course I could use a simple transfer switch on the #4 wire 200-amp service line and power the entire main panel with the generator. The cost is about the same but I decided to roll with the transfer panel (multiple breaker-protected circuits) for the ability to balance the load on the generator. Additionally, being able to transfer a single circuit at a time to the generator (while leaving the rest connected to the main) is a major plus for me, as is being able to read the wattage on each leg via the panel gauges when the generator is supplying the power.

The map looks good. With the exception of one "luxury" circuit (split-ductless heat pump for A/C), I have all of the critical circuits connected to the transfer panel: well pump, refrigerators, heating system, hot water and critical kitchen circuits). The remaining transfer panel circuit breakers are delegated to other commonly used circuits. There are few gaps in the coverage, but the map worked out better than expected and the load is well within the generator's rated output.

However, the lack of A/C is a not-so-minor problem: my wife is an ice woman. To put this in context, we don't air-condition in the summer - we refrigerate. There is no way I could not have A/C available if we were to lose power in the summer (even though a rare occurrence for us). The solution is an additional single-circuit transfer switch to handle the A/C circuit, taking back-up power from the generator's L14-30R 240v 30-amp receptacle, while using the 14-50R 240v 50-amp receptacle to power the transfer panel. The additional A/C load maxes out the generator, so load management will be more important (the alternator has a main 50-amp breaker).

This generator stuff is fun.

No inverter on that genny? I've got that transfer switch for my solar setup, it's great, money well spent.

[UNK]

We used to see a lot of generators stolen right from peoples driveways while running - you may want to put a chain “leash” on it just to scare off the opportunistic jamoches.

My dad had a trailer in his driveway with a hardened steel chain around a large tree. It didnt stop them from stealing it one night.

[NH Shooter]

No inverter on that genny? I've got that transfer switch for my solar setup, it's great, money well spent.

Negative, but the alternator is specified at under 5% THD.

It's only a matter of time before an inverter model in the 12k - 15k range will be available.

[Spartan1980]

Negative, but the alternator is specified at under 5% THD.

It's only a matter of time before an inverter model in the 12k - 15k range will be available.

Generac whole house generators are inverter. If they were configured as a portable they wouldn't be very portable. Is the obstacle engine displacement?

[gringop]

Non-expert opinion/idea, capacity of capacitors to provide temp power needed to provide required juice until the the rpm increases when the load increases/decreases?

Small engines can increase or decrease power quicker than large engines when electrical load changes. Also, large engines may use other engineering/design to maintain the correct voltage/cycle. Also large gens may not use eco-throttle at all, even if they are inverter-type.

Just spitballing.

Gringop

[NH Shooter]

Generac whole house generators are inverter. If they were configured as a portable they wouldn't be very portable. Is the obstacle engine displacement?

A good question to which I have no answer.

IMO, the Wgen 12,000/15,000 I purchased is not really "portable." Without any gas in the tank, it weighs 360 pounds. With a full tank of gas, it's around 420 pounds. While the wheel kit makes it possible for one person to move it wheelbarrow style on flat, hard surfaces, how many able bodies would be needed to lift it into the back of a truck to use on a job site? For power tool use, it would be overkill anyway.

So why not go with a stationary whole house generator like the Generac?

For me there are a few reasons;

• Our power outages typically occur in the sub-freezing temperatures of winter. For a whole house generator running on LP, a very large tank is required. This is NOT for runtime, but rather to provide enough surface area of the liquefied gas inside the tank to have a high enough rate of vaporization to run the generator. Our current 420 lb. tank would be a limiting factor, especially at temperatures below 20 degrees F. and/or when the tank is only partially full. In my case (with a 200,000 BTU load of the generator), a 500 gallon tank would be the ticket to maximize operation at all temperatures we are likely to encounter. Info here.
• If the generator needs repair or service in the middle of the winter (especially with snow on the ground), I'd much prefer to do that work in my garage.
• The generator makes more power (higher output) on gasoline.
• A stationary, propane-fueled generator needs to be exercised regularly throughout the year. With a portable gasoline generator, I can completely drain the fuel system (tank and carburetor) and store it indefinitely. This has been my SOP for decades with my current generator: once spring arrives, I drain the fuel and prepare it for storage. Always using Sta-Bil in the gas is the key to success.

Of course there are downsides to the "portabe generator" approach as well, but overall it works for me. If an inverter portable generator with enough capacity (without having to run multiple units) is ever offered, I might be game.

[hufnagel]

my main thoughts on "portable" vs. "whole house":
cost... portable are usually cheaper even for same or similar power output. there's also the permitting aspects for permanent whole house.
flexibility... you're not beholden to the maker of the generator. your setup with a portable is generally more adaptable; your genset dies? you can buy any size one that will plug in, off the shelf.
upgradeablility... assuming you planned for it (oversized wiring to the panel/transfer switch), you can start with a smaller/cheaper unit today, and adapt as your needs dictate.

and my main problem/concern with inverter units will always be... they don't handle surges well.

if anything, one of the reasons any small generator like these has with handling surges, comes down to mass. if someone wanted to figure out how to couple a heavy flywheel to their generator, it'd go a long way to stabilizing the output.