For those who shoot RMR's I need help correcting an issue please.

[Gio]

You are right, I did not define a distance, but it did not stop you from attempting to make a statement of ill intent from my posts, using words like "misinterpreted" and "misguided." You were incorrect in those statements.

I will not rehash the competition vs real world debate, I made my stance clear, as many have so lets not waste each other's time.

Scott, your friend, has a different definition of "muscle memory" so you should probably figure that whole thing out before investing in a statement.

He is a friend, but if he gave that advice without any additional context, it's misguided. When you regurgitate that advice without any additional context, you are misguiding others. He's also wrong on muscle memory. Think about all the things you do without thinking about it: type, chew, operate the pedals on a vehicle, ride a bike, play a musical instrument, etc. indexing a pistol on the draw is no different. Do it enough that it becomes subconscious and you will do it better, faster, and more consistent.

[voodoo_man]

He is a friend, but if he gave that advice without any additional context, it's misguided. When you regurgitate that advice without any additional context, you are misguiding others. He's also wrong on muscle memory. Think about all the things you do without thinking about it: type, chew, operate the pedals on a vehicle, ride a bike, play a musical instrument, etc. indexing a pistol on the draw is no different. Do it enough that it becomes subconscious and you will do it better, faster, and more consistent.

Now you're just mixing things up for an unknown reason.

I've spoken about back plate shooting in the context of close range contact, you chose to make an issue of it, to what end? Only you seem to know that.

As I posted in my AAR of Scott's class:

"Muscles do not have memory. Myelination through proper repetition is the path to subconscious competence." While this is difficult for most to grasp as many people have been taught about "muscle memory" for a long time, Scott explained the concept well while dismissing any possible thought otherwise.

I will not be responding to you on this topic further, so save your response. You seem to want to have a mud throwing competition where I am trying to provide personal experience so that others may benefit.

[Gio]

Now you're just mixing things up for an unknown reason.

I've spoken about back plate shooting in the context of close range contact, you chose to make an issue of it, to what end? Only you seem to know that.

As I posted in my AAR of Scott's class:



I will not be responding to you on this topic further, so save your response. You seem to want to have a mud throwing competition where I am trying to provide personal experience so that others may benefit.

I don't spend enough time reading every post or thread here to have seen you elaborate on this concept in more detail elsewhere on this forum or your blog. My response was strictly to provide context/contrast to how you answered the OP's question in this thread, which as provided, was misguided. I'm not the only poster who questioned your advice, as @GJM compared it to condition 3 carry.

Whether you call it myelination or muscle memory, the key point for the OP to understand is that the solution to his problem is developing subconscious ability through repetition, which is a very real skill set.

[critter]

I had (still have at times, if I haven't practiced with the RMR recently) the same problem. What I found I was doing was using the top of the RMR frame as an alignment point, and doing so I invariably had the same incorrect high sight picture (dot out of view at top of window, or almost so, and muzzle high). Since with irons I normally have them pretty well aligned upon presentation, I figured out my pea brain was overriding this normal presentation - - - perhaps because my eyes were wrongly "seeing" that shallow concave top of the RMR as the front aiming point. Whatever, I started trying to focus on the target and bring the RMR up, trying to center the window without seeing the top of the frame. Poorly described, but that helped me.

(I'll have to note that I'm terribly near-sighted, and with my normal eyeglasses, the front (iron) sight is very blurred, unless I tilt my head way back so I can see through the bottom of my progressive lenses. On the range, I wear glasses with the dominant eye lens set for front sight sharpness. Those glasses aren't good for normal wear. But my normal glasses work fine with the red dots, which is, for me at least, considerable motivation to go with a red dot.)

Yeah, progressive lenses are a bitch for shooting. I don't use any shooting specific lenses, but I don't shoot competitively either. I practice with my progressives and without corrective lenses at all. I had to completely retrain how I sight a pistol. Black fronts sights are virtually worthless to me for presentation because it takes quite a bit of time for me to locate them. I trained extensively with the biggest Big Dots. This allowed me to pick up the front sight in peripheral vision and follow it up and on target. It's never in focus for me (exactly how I learned NOT to shoot, but hey, it works well with the onset of shitty eyesight). I also cant the front sight higher in the presentation phase (about 45 degrees or so) and then level out at the end of the forward push (again, opposite original training of raising the weapon higher on draw and then coming more straight forward).

This presentation translates perfectly to the red dots. I follow the front sight all the way up peripherally, and when the weapon levels, the red dot is almost dead center every time. I don't own a red dot for any of my pistols... yet. I've only shot my buddies' red dot equipped pistols, but have had zero issue with any of them, as long as the front sight is anything but black.

[SC_Dave]

So not liking yesterdays range trip I went back today. I put away the timer and slowed way down and focused heavily on target focus and it did help some. If I lowered my head slightly more than I've engrained myself to do with irons I found the dot was there. So I drew from concealment paying close attention to the above and fired one shot when the dot was acquired and on target then re-holstered. I did 150 reps of this. Toward the end it was getting better so I plan to pick this same routine up at the next trip.

Thoughts?

David

[voodoo_man]

So not liking yesterdays range trip I went back today. I put away the timer and slowed way down and focused heavily on target focus and it did help some. If I lowered my head slightly more than I've engrained myself to do with irons I found the dot was there. So I drew from concealment paying close attention to the above and fired one shot when the dot was acquired and on target then re-holstered. I did 150 reps of this. Toward the end it was getting better so I plan to pick this same routine up at the next trip.

Thoughts?

David

Dryfire is where you are going to make the most progress with this.

Just understand that you are trying to undo all the reps you already have with iron sights. It is not going to be easy, but if that is your goal then do it dry with a finite target (like a B8 on a wall) and make sure you are doing perfect reps each time, so trigger prep/press shouldn't even be considered here as you are trying to learn how to pick up the dot.

You are trying to go forward by going backward first, it is going to take some time.

[GJM]

So not liking yesterdays range trip I went back today. I put away the timer and slowed way down and focused heavily on target focus and it did help some. If I lowered my head slightly more than I've engrained myself to do with irons I found the dot was there. So I drew from concealment paying close attention to the above and fired one shot when the dot was acquired and on target then re-holstered. I did 150 reps of this. Toward the end it was getting better so I plan to pick this same routine up at the next trip.

Thoughts?

David

My thoughts are that I try to be especially upright in my posture with the dot, and bring the dot to me rather than hunch. I also use the frame of the lens to center the display, rather than try to draw to the dot.

[Seth_yg]

To second voodoo and many others thinking probly the same thing...dry fire is the key here. Yes you can achieve some sort of menial success and mental accomplishment by going to the range and practicing slow and improving incrementally but the real issue is the presentation, which can only be fixed by hundreds if not thousands of dry fire draws and/or press outs.

I had a similar issue when I first started with a slide mounted RDS on a glock 19.4. The issue is the grip itself, glocks inherently point high and this is only exaggerated by the RDS, it is happening with irons also you might not notice it as much. (Once again not new info really)

My advice is to remain target focused, practice slow on close targets (3 yards or closer) draw and present gun, don’t press out and fish for dot, learn to draw while focusing on target and learn to superimpose dot on target. Some people advocate the slight raising of the gun during the press out, sort of at an angle instead of a straight press out. (Travis Haley) I don’t think this technique is needed for everyone. This takes time, some people adapt to it sooner than others. I think it is directly proportionate to the amount of reps you have with irons. I adapted fairly quickly, within 100 press outs or so my dot was appearing in the window every time. I was also a fairly new shooter, had been shooting pistol for less than 2 years. I’m 15k rounds deep into my fauxland special and loving it. The RDS really made pistol shooting fun, and helped me overcome many challenges I had early on.
Hope this some of this helps! Be safe, train hard!

P.S. - muscle memory or neural pathways, however you want to word it translates to one thing = reps. Reps matter and are the best solution short of changing platforms. Which I suppose you could do if money was not an issue, for me I had invested too much to change platforms.


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[Seth_yg]

Also I did add a grip force adapter later on and it helped with the grip angle a bit.


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[SC_Dave]

To second voodoo and many others thinking probly the same thing...dry fire is the key here. Yes you can achieve some sort of menial success and mental accomplishment by going to the range and practicing slow and improving incrementally but the real issue is the presentation, which can only be fixed by hundreds if not thousands of dry fire draws and/or press outs.

I had a similar issue when I first started with a slide mounted RDS on a glock 19.4. The issue is the grip itself, glocks inherently point high and this is only exaggerated by the RDS, it is happening with irons also you might not notice it as much. (Once again not new info really)

My advice is to remain target focused, practice slow on close targets (3 yards or closer) draw and present gun, don’t press out and fish for dot, learn to draw while focusing on target and learn to superimpose dot on target. Some people advocate the slight raising of the gun during the press out, sort of at an angle instead of a straight press out. (Travis Haley) I don’t think this technique is needed for everyone. This takes time, some people adapt to it sooner than others. I think it is directly proportionate to the amount of reps you have with irons. I adapted fairly quickly, within 100 press outs or so my dot was appearing in the window every time. I was also a fairly new shooter, had been shooting pistol for less than 2 years. I’m 15k rounds deep into my fauxland special and loving it. The RDS really made pistol shooting fun, and helped me overcome many challenges I had early on.
Hope this some of this helps! Be safe, train hard!

P.S. - muscle memory or neural pathways, however you want to word it translates to one thing = reps. Reps matter and are the best solution short of changing platforms. Which I suppose you could do if money was not an issue, for me I had invested too much to change platforms.


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My thoughts are that I try to be especially upright in my posture with the dot, and bring the dot to me rather than hunch. I also use the frame of the lens to center the display, rather than try to draw to the dot.

GJM and Seth,
I tried the method Travis mention and as you mentioned it's not for everyone. I did some dry fire reps and that, along with the lowering my head a bit has helped. I'm not there yet but it is not as bad as last week. Also to clarify, I'm all about being upright. When I say I'm dropping my head a little, it's very little and it's head only, not hunched backed. I'm ugly enough I don't need to look like the Hunch Back of ND. It also did something else for me. I wear transitional lenses and it helped me to be more clearly target focused because I'm now looking more through the top (distant) part of the lens. Thanks guys.

Also I did add a grip force adapter later on and it helped with the grip angle a bit.




I have a GFA and thought about putting it on to see if it helped. I had it on before but it seemed gimmicky to me and took it off before I got use to it.
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I have a GFA and thought about putting it on to see if it helped. I had it on before but it seemed gimmicky to me and took it off before I got use to it.