Todd makes a lot of things look much easier than reality. Sensitivity to muzzle rise can be (very) technique and shooter dependent.Originally Posted by will_1400
FWIW: There are a LOT of very accomplished competitive shooters that say it does matter.
There are a lot of very accomplished shooters who say it matters who've never put a lot of time behind guns with relatively higher bore axis.
I guarantee if you put a HK45 in Dave Sevigny's hands and told him he'd get $100,000 for winning USPSA Nationals with it, he wouldn't think twice about the bore axis after a week's practice.
I don't doubt that, some of the opinions may not be as informed as others.
Previously, you've mentioned some of the tendonitis and other issues that you had with doing a high round count .45 endurance gun. Have you given much thought to how the high bore axis may (or may not) have contributed to those issues?
The M&P9 (with its low bore axis) hurt my elbows more than the P30 (higher bore axis). Even then, there were so many other variables it's hard to say the gun or bore axis had anything to do with it.
I don't dispute that a low bore axis -- all else being equal -- makes a difference. It's just a very small difference, one that is easily outweighed by other differences between brands like spring rates, grip angles, inertia delivery from slide to frame, trigger, sights, etc. The majority of people who get uber excited about ultra short reset and super low bore axis are the guys who want to see one sight picture, pull the trigger twice, and get fast close together hits. The problem with that approach is that once you go past two shots -- especially if you're not in a perfect static shooting position -- recoil management and visual control of the gun play a much bigger role than bore axis, trigger reset, etc.
Ancient thread, but I'll put in my 2 cents worth from a physics perspective:
When you pull the trigger, the energy has to go somewhere. With a low bore axis the energy mostly goes straight back into your arms and (with the right stance) your body. This is great until the muscles in the wrist and arm have absorbed too much energy to remain stable (this actually starts happen after the first shot). Static muscles do not absorb (dampen) energy very well, so at some point your body will begin to move, and you will have to compensate to maintain your sight picture (you'll notice your front sight moving around in little circles or random wobbles side to side.). Clearly it's possible to get good at this, but from a pure physics perspective, the nature of the motion the shooter compensates for is fairly random and not conducive to muscle memory formation. A pistol with a high bore axis will recoil in a predictable direction and the energy that comes off of it will be absorbed largely by the muscles in the wrist and forearm. This is a much narrower scope of muscles to focus on which should allow muscle memory to play a much larger part in the process of shooting (ideally the front sight jumps straight up and straight down in only one predictable direction). In addition, moving muscles (i.e. the muscles in your forearm that stretch as your wrist moves upward to the recoil) are a vastly more efficient energy dampener than the static stance in the first case. One could construct a partial differential equation to accurately represent the situation, the solution of which would not be trivial. My intuition however is that such an exercise would yield two successful associations that correspond to higher proportional accuracy and better recoil recovery:
1: Low bore axis and Low recoil (.22, etc...)
2: High bore axis and High recoil (.45 ACP, etc...)
As for a median round like .40, or even 9mm, the correlation likely breaks down.
To make a long story short: For the rounds most people shoot in competition, there is probably little substantial difference in the optimal performance of low bore axis and high bore axis handguns. However, at the highest level, it will likely take a lot more work to be proficient with a low BA handgun than with a high one.
I much prefer a high bore axis when shooting a heavy recoiling handgun like a short .44 with full power 300 plus grain hard cast ammo. My SA Blackhawk rolls in my hand, much reducing felt recoil, while a DA Smith revolver drives straight back into your hand.
A disadvantage of a high bore axis pistol is that it does not conceal as well. In a Shaggy, a Glock 20/21's grip is shorter than a HK 45C.
I'd love it if my gen 4 17 (I'm lucky, I got one with the old parts that hasn't skipped a beat in 5k) had a P30 frame and controls with a gadget.
Since the last part is the only feasible section I keep staring at my checking account balance and the price of a P30 with lem plus sights, install, mags, holster, mag carriers, and new springs.
Then I realize I'm saving for a house and I will get to pester Todd in person for a gadget at AFHF.
Absolutely agreed.
I think this is backwards - that it takes less work and effort to drive a low bore axis gun fast. The higher the muzzle rises in recoil - which it can't be denied that generally high bore axis guns do - the finer degree of finesse is required in timing the gun to get the sights to return to the same place for the second shot. Maybe, however, this is only really applicable to the guy trying to shoot a 3" group at 25 yards running ~.20 splits (Ben Stoeger can do this, as can I'm sure a handful of other people).However, at the highest level, it will likely take a lot more work to be proficient with a low BA handgun than with a high one.
My (admittedly narrow) shooting experience is as follows:
Using a low BA gun, consecutive shots drive the gun in unpredictable directions. As my arms absorb the recoil, my stance gets disrupted and the gun turns towards the weakness. This manifests in a little star-like pattern in the air drawn by the front sight, and my method of bringing the gun back into alignment is to relax during the shot and then re-tighten my grip just after the shot to force it back into my indexed stance (which is usually pretty accurate). It takes time, and it always requires a general correction.
Using a High BA gun (my experience is limited to a Sig 226 .40 and a 1911 .45 acp), the front sight simply oscillates up and down, and I find that my wrist seems to absorb some of the recoil. I'm able to keep my strong grip and correct in only one direction, I just focus on timing the drop.
I broke down and bought a P30. I hate me but I love the gun.
Reply With Quote