Engaging someone that's in an extremely elevated position

[Lon]

I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.

And thats the crux of the problem.

[GJM]

And thats the crux of the problem.

These guys were doing a course in WY with an outfitter, out of Alpine, Wyoming, supposedly doing lots of high angle stuff.

[SamAdams]

These guys were doing a course in WY with an outfitter, out of Alpine, Wyoming, supposedly doing lots of high angle stuff.

Except that you run the risk of being shot at (an admittedly Big difference requiring cover) this 'problem' would have similarities to those faced by high mountain big game rifle hunters.


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[TC215]

One thing to consider: 30'ish stories is high up ... it has wildly different winds than at ground level.



Here's one place that I used to frequent in WV, it's a private farm:

Attachment 20566


The white dot under the power lines, in that vertical clearing, was the target:

Attachment 20567

Not necessarily “wildly different”.

I just looked at the “winds aloft” for my area right now, wind is blowing out of the same direction at three thousand, six thousand, and nine thousand feet, within about a 10 knot range.

Now, I’ve spent about my entirely like flying in country that looks like the pictures you posted. Wind definitely does some funny things in the mountains. But it’s not really a fair comparison.

Sure, the wind could be different at 30-stories, but in that situation, it would be pretty low on my list of things to worry about.

[GJM]

Same boat as JV, no LE experience, just thinking out loud with the benefit of hindsight. Could they have:

1) turned sprinklers on in that section of the hotel rooms.

2) turned off power and lights down below in the impact zone.

3) deployed enough smoke to obscure targeting.

4) focused a searchlight on shooter's room, either fixed or night sun on a helicopter, to interfere with his targeting.

[TGS]

1) turned sprinklers on in that section of the hotel rooms.

Doubtful unless the hotel had a fireman in the control room, if they even have the capability to manually turn it on.

Unless of course LV hotels are unlike any I've ever been to (worked protection details at), and they have staff that handle such.

2) turned off power and lights down below in the impact zone..

Sure, but this wasn't aimed fire on a specific point target to begin with so the effect will be minimal.

3) deployed enough smoke to obscure targeting..

I've never seen patrol cops carry smoke grenades.

4) focused a searchlight on shooter's room, either fixed or night sun on a helicopter, to interfere with his targeting.

Where are you getting the searchlight?

Again, thin skinned helicopters have no business being around what is essentially a machine gun bunker.

[GJM]

I often wonder how risk reward decisions get made during times of utter crap, and how that might vary between military and LE.

I remember on 9/11, where two unarmed F16 aircraft got launched with the mission of intercepting flight 93 before it reached D.C. With no armament, there option was to ram the commercial airliner. Same terrible choices for WTC responders. In the case of LE, not military, is there SOP as to how the lives of responders are balanced against the lives of victims. Depending upon those decisions, there might be different types of attempts made.

I have no opinion, just wondering if there SOP in LE, or do these decisions get made on the fly depending upon command structure and/or circumstances?

[andre3k]

There are not many situations which a well equipped and trained group of patrol officers cannot overcome.

This.

Once the shooter is located the solution is fairly simple at that point. In a situation like this there's no time for putting swat guys on helicopters to fast rope through windows 30 stories up, no smoke grenades, no setting off sprinklers off to get the shooter wet. Identify the crook and the location and send guys in to go after him. My personal opinion is that an active shooter situation is probably the easiest situation to solve in LE.

Dealing with a guy that's armed like this somebody (or a few) are going to take some hits for the team going in. This is what we signed up for.

[BehindBlueI's]

In the case of LE, not military, is there SOP as to how the lives of responders are balanced against the lives of victims. Depending upon those decisions, there might be different types of attempts made.

I have no opinion, just wondering if there SOP in LE, or do these decisions get made on the fly depending upon command structure and/or circumstances?

I suspect you'll find nobody worth listening to is going to discuss anything approaching specifics on this in an open forum. I've been through two active shooter response schools, a response to suicide bomber school, and one real active shooter event. There are best practices in place, and they are adaptable based on what you observe, what you have, and who's with you.

[GJM]

That’s not how modern fire suppression sprinklers work.

Trivia Time: Hiram Stevens Maxim — who invented the Maxim Gun (the first portable fully automatic machine gun) and whose son, Hiram Percy Maxim, invented the silencer — invented the automatic fire sprinkler.

How do they work and is there an option to turn them on manually?