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Thread: Engaging someone that's in an extremely elevated position

  1. #21
    Smoke Bomb / Ninja Vanish Chance's Avatar
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    I asked Paul Howe about this, and he's reserving comment until additional information comes in. At that point, I suspect he'll pen an article on the topic.

    His initial comments were basically: suppress if you can, and maneuver. If the ceiling is concrete, you can bounce rounds off it to get to the rearward parts of the room. That was all he mentioned in our brief e-mail exchange.

    The minuscule amount I know about high-angle shooting says it will cause you to hit high, due to the fact gravity only acts on the round over the horizontal distance, rather than the actual (I think "hypotenutical" is a word?) distance. [Source] So if you haven't trained in high-angle beforehand, that sounds like a problem.
    Last edited by Chance; 10-02-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    You're still firing a high-powered rifle upward at an angle that's probably pretty close to maximizing the range of whatever cartridge you're firing. At that kind of range, wind comes into play, so there's no telling where those rounds are going to land. Plus you've got a major city in your range fan.

    It's a horrible situation no matter what.


    Okie John
    Unfortunately it's a crappy situation no matter which way you cut it. Stopping the thread should be #1 priority. The issue is if guys aren't trained up with crappy equipment then they might miss and that backdrop is a total no shoot.

    Having good equipment and training on how to properly use it paramount.
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  3. #23
    Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

    http://www.millettsights.com/downloa...nddownhill.pdf

    At 400 yards you might be holding as low as 10 to 12 inches, but that is a rough estimate. I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.
    "Rich," the Old Man said dreamily, "is a little whiskey to drink and some food to eat and a roof over your head and a fish pole and a boat and a gun and a dollar for a box of shells." Robert Ruark
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

    http://www.millettsights.com/downloa...nddownhill.pdf

    At 400 yards you might be holding as low as 10 to 12 inches, but that is a rough estimate. I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.
    There's schools that teach this kind of marksmanship. Usually to military snipers or hunters.

    http://www.29palms.marines.mil/mcmwt...nipers-Course/

    High angle shots are nothing new to either group. But I recognize it is well outside the normal training for patrol officers, or even SWAT.
    Last edited by Mark D; 10-02-2017 at 04:54 PM. Reason: added link
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

    http://www.millettsights.com/downloa...nddownhill.pdf

    At 400 yards you might be holding as low as 10 to 12 inches, but that is a rough estimate. I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.
    That's a problem for people that are much more high speed and low drag than me. There are some facilities that are equipped for practice from an elevated tower, shooting down. They are typically not open to your average joe. I'm not aware of anyplace where you can practice shooting up at a target 300 some odd feet above you.

    Because we hunt the mountains out here during elk seasons, I've done some work with a slope doper in some spots in the National Forest where I can safely shoot at a target at a higher or lower elevation. I've done it more to figure out a range/slope envelope where I'm green to take a shot inside it, but red outside of it.

    It's a non-trivial problem.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.
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  6. #26
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    There's some Hollywood inspired bullshit in this thread. Fuck, why don't we just have a sharpshooter hang glide over from a taller building?

    It's a barricaded shooter. There's not much that changes other than you have one exterior wall that's not available for breaching. You're going to deal with it from inside the structure using the same basic tactics you would on any other confined and barricaded suspect, with the tempo being dictated by if he's still an active shooter or not.
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  7. #27
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    How about:

    1) through the door, with a secondary benefit of distracting the shooter from engaging outside.

    2) lowering two guys in harnesses either side of the shootr's window(s).

    3) taking a Las Vegas PD Bell 407 or 530F, rear doors off, and hovering shooters either side of the windows.

    Ideally multiple things at the same time.
    Once the BadGuy's location is found, patrol could fix him in place pending the arrival of those with better capabilities. If led well, competently equipped & trained, and confident in their admin's handling of things, it is possible a patrol element could affect the breach and engage the badguy. There are a helluva lot of qualifiers in that sentence. I "think" I read somewhere in all that has come out today that patrol / security(???) tried engaging the suspect through the barricaded room door but got forced back. Also, I've seen stories, reports saying that two on-duty coppers were wounded by the suspect while engaging him. Completely unsure at this point though;

    My recollection is that LVMPD has done #2 for real, based on discussions with a TL on an enhanced bureau team;

    More & more agencies are going down the road of putting trained guys with rifles in the back seats of their birds. During the aftermath of an armored car robbery with multiple crime scenes, multiple jurisdictions, and more, a local Sheriff's Office that has trained on it, pulled the rear doors on a Long Ranger and put a sniper on either side of the bird as overwatch during a couple hour search for an outstanding suspect. While they did not have to engage, they were super useful when the BadGuy was found by a perimeter patrol deputy in a creek bottom. If an agency can support this training, I'd suggest that once SWAT is up to speed they start feeding a few patrol rifle guys into the pipeline. It may be easier to find one of them than to wait for a sniper to be available & in position.

    That said, hovering anything un-armored sideways IFO a fighting position prep'd by a BadGuy intent on doing harm to a whole bunch of people may not be the best idea. And I'd strongly argue against it.
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  8. #28
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    One thing to consider: 30'ish stories is high up ... it has wildly different winds than at ground level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    At 400 yards you might be holding as low as 10 to 12 inches, but that is a rough estimate. I don't know where one could go to actually practice shots at a distance with steep angles.
    Here's one place that I used to frequent in WV, it's a private farm:

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    The white dot under the power lines, in that vertical clearing, was the target:

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    Last edited by JV_; 10-02-2017 at 06:10 PM.
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  9. #29
    Just to bring up a point...

    More and more patrol officers are moving (and should be) towards swat level equipment and training. While a departments swat team will be tasked with specific hostage rescue type and other special circumstances.

    There are not many situations which a well equipped and trained group of patrol officers cannot overcome.
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  10. #30
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    Oops ... just realized this is the LE sub-forum. I'll bow out - not my lane.
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