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Thread: Engaging someone that's in an extremely elevated position

  1. #11
    Honestly and truthfully, this scenario scares the shit out of me from an LE perspective. Lon, you are not alone in your grasp for knowledge on this particular event. I'm at a loss as to how one would or for that matter, could respond other than direct action at the door as LVMPD did. As for LE capability, I think we'd be hard pressed to see any agency be able to effectively respond to this scenario from the ground. LE uses the term "designated marksman" as a title befitting of anybody capable of passing a lax 100 yard course of fire here in Ohio. Hardly what I'd consider skilled. True SRT/SWAT, in my opinion, is reserved for the likes of LAPD, Miami/Dade, NYPD, and FBI HRT. All other agencies are best attempts with the resources they have at the moment.

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  2. #12
    If there is no rifle present with good glass and the precision shooting training required to make those hits, then the only possible stop to that threat is to bring the fight to the shooter as fast as possible.
    In my area this would be the most likely scenario. The guys that are going to be first on scene will be patrol from a multitude of agencies. With the exception of SWAT guys variable glass on a bolt gun or even an AR isn't very common. You're far more likely to see a 16 inch Bushmaster with a RDS and that's about it.

    I would be very hesitant to start taking long range shots at a target into a crowded hotel with that setup. If the patrol guys I work with are indicative of anything. The majority won't have much experience taking shots with their carbine over 100 yards and will have never fired that weapon at an extreme upward angle. After a while SWAT guys will start showing up but those first few minutes or more will be on your own.

    I would focus on finding out the shooters location. This is where the dispatcher comes into play. There will always be a call coming from where the shooters location that will inevitably be lost in the tons of other calls dropping at the same time. I guarantee you that the rooms adjacent to the shooter either called 911 or notified hotel security.

    Once you get an idea of the location then you can get close and actually use what you're trained to do.


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    Last edited by andre3k; 10-02-2017 at 02:05 PM.
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  3. #13
    Not LE, but if forced to deal with this, lobbing .300 WM rounds into an unknown building seems especially unappealing. How about:

    1) through the door, with a secondary benefit of distracting the shooter from engaging outside.

    2) lowering two guys in harnesses either side of the shootr's window(s).

    3) taking a Las Vegas PD Bell 407 or 530F, rear doors off, and hovering shooters either side of the windows.

    Ideally multiple things at the same time.
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  4. #14
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post

    2) lowering two guys in harnesses either side of the shootr's window(s).

    3) taking a Las Vegas PD Bell 407 or 530F, rear doors off, and hovering shooters either side of the windows.

    Ideally multiple things at the same time.
    Neither of these are viable options for the first on scene patrol guys.

    It would take an hour or more to get a police helo to my AO and that's being generous.

    Getting SWAT guys there and in place to do a rappel down would be even longer.
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Not LE - but bad guys can google too, and IMO this is a subject best left to vetted discussion forums like classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by andre3k View Post
    My first inclination would try to find the shooter and get to his location. After that your tactics are the same as any active shooter. Sending accurate fire more than a few stories up would be pretty risky even if you could identify a target. I've never practiced shooting at an upward angle so I have no idea how it affects bullet trajectory.

    I can only imagine attempting to locate a shooter that you highly suspect has a full auto weapon and trying to make entry into a hotel room to deal with that situation. Balls of steel somehow comes to mind.

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    I'm NotSWAT, but every time I saw rappelling mentioned in missing planning it was in the context of a planned hostage rescue where there was plenty of time to prepare and law enforcement had some control of the timeline when things kicked off.

    Dunno what departments have the capability to amount a hasty assault that is planned on the fly with an air asset.

    In this case, all the reports I'm seeing are that a SWAT element fixed his location via smoke alarms, did an explosive breach, and then charged through the fatal funnel.

    It's time like these that I remember what one of my Sergeants told me. "When we control the timing, we can arrange everything to our advantage. When the other guy controls the timing, you have to accept that you just have to move in and it might be your day to take one for the public."

    He was talking about patrol response to a school shooting specifically, but that applies doubly here.

    If that guy had armed and barricaded but not shooting up the town, I'm sure LVPD SWAT could have come up with all sorts of ways to get him out of that room. In this case, they had to blow the door open and charge, accepting that one or all of them might eat some bullets in the process.
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Neither of these are viable options for the first on scene patrol guys.

    It would take an hour or more to get a police helo to my AO and that's being generous.

    Getting SWAT guys there and in place to do a rappel down would be even longer.
    Leaving aside tactics, and focusing just on availability -- per my buddy, Las Vegas PD has six 530F (Little Bird) helicopters, and one EC 145, and usually at least one helicopter in the air at all times. Base is North Las Vegas Airport, 8.1 nautical miles from the crime scene.
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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Leaving aside tactics, and focusing just on availability -- per my buddy, Las Vegas PD has six 530F (Little Bird) helicopters, and one EC 145, and usually at least one helicopter in the air at all times. Base is North Las Vegas Airport, 8.1 nautical miles from the crime scene.
    It sounds like an air unit picking up a SWAT sniper and responding is at least theoretically possible. I've seen Little Birds land in places I'd have trouble turning around my pickup.

    If it isn't practiced though, you probably won't do it for reals.

    I wonder if more folks will start practicing this sort of thing.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    It sounds like an air unit picking up a SWAT sniper and responding is at least theoretically possible. I've seen Little Birds land in places I'd have trouble turning around my pickup.

    If it isn't practiced though, you probably won't do it for reals.

    I wonder if more folks will start practicing this sort of thing.
    Las Vegas already does a lot of very difficult Little Bird flying, usually in a SAR capacity.
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  9. #19
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Helicopters typically don't do well against automatic weapons fire at close range. There's a reason that even armored combat helicopters rely on stand-off and indirect line-of-sight as their primary method of defense.

    Unless a local PD has access to armored birds like a Mi-24 Hind, trying to solve this situation with a helicopter having a direct line of sight and close proximity to the shooter seems like a guaranteed way to ensure a helicopter gets shot up and crashes, potentially causing exponentially more casualties if it goes into a building.....
    Last edited by TGS; 10-02-2017 at 03:13 PM.
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  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    In terms of Texas Tower, you do not have to be as accurate as there aren't any people immediately around that area, but you still should not miss (obviously).
    You're still firing a high-powered rifle upward at an angle that's probably pretty close to maximizing the range of whatever cartridge you're firing. At that kind of range, wind comes into play, so there's no telling where those rounds are going to land. Plus you've got a major city in your range fan.

    It's a horrible situation no matter what.


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