Didn't want to pollute HCM's Vegas thread with this.
How does an LE trainer prepare his guys for engaging someone that's on the 32nd floor or other Texas Tower type shooting? Can you?
The 32nd floor of a building isn't common outside of large cities, but every town of any size has water towers and probably 7-10 story buildings. Heck, even my city of 30k+ has a 9 and 11 story building.
Thoughts?
Formerly known as xpd54.
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Not LE - but bad guys can google too, and IMO this is a subject best left to vetted discussion forums like classes.Originally Posted by Lon
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
My first inclination would try to find the shooter and get to his location. After that your tactics are the same as any active shooter. Sending accurate fire more than a few stories up would be pretty risky even if you could identify a target. I've never practiced shooting at an upward angle so I have no idea how it affects bullet trajectory.
I can only imagine attempting to locate a shooter that you highly suspect has a full auto weapon and trying to make entry into a hotel room to deal with that situation. Balls of steel somehow comes to mind.
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Last edited by andre3k; 10-02-2017 at 10:26 AM.
My understanding is that trajectory is influenced by the horizontal component of distance not the total distance. There are charts for this.
After you get to cover and identify the location of the shooter you should get to a weapon system which is applicable.
In the Vegas scenario you would need a weapon system which can take 300y+ shots. So that means a bolt gun, an AR in 5.56 or 7.62 and a good piece of glass to give you PID, and ammo which will work at that distance.
At a minimum a 16" AR15 with a 2.5-10x and 77gr OTM would be required for effective application at that distance.
If you do not have that readily available in your vehicle, then going to the source with a pistol should only be considered if the police are not coming or are being overwhelmed and you know where the threat is exactly.
With all that being said, if you find yourself in that particular situation, especially in a large metro type area. Find cover, sit tight, render aid as needed (this is why having a med kit with multiple med items is a good idea to have in your vehicle at all times). You rushing in and/or trying to stop the threat while other LEOs are coming into this type of scenario is almost certainly going to get you shot.
If this happens to be in a rural part of America, where you know all three officers working, then maybe you can get some work in, but you'd probably also have a readily available rifle in your truck as well.
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Based on the original post I think he's referring to a law enforcement response as opposed to an armed citizen.
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Missed that.
For LE:
Locate threat - do not engage until you have PID (positive ID) and can 100% make hits without hitting other people in other rooms.
Most swat teams have bolt guns, this would be a good application for them. In terms of this Vegas scenario, you'd need to make 100% accurate hits.
In terms of Texas Tower, you do not have to be as accurate as there aren't any people immediately around that area, but you still should not miss (obviously).
2.5-10x is a good magnification. 1-8x will also do in both of these situations. Knowing your zero and hold over is key and absolutely required. Iron sights would be useless or near useless.
One of the guys in the squad working needs be a "designated marksman" and have a rifle 5.56 or 7.62 which is equipped with a good piece of glass, bipod, etc. This is the guy who gets into position after hearing calls and makes precision shots to stop the threat.
If there is no rifle present with good glass and the precision shooting training required to make those hits, then the only possible stop to that threat is to bring the fight to the shooter as fast as possible.
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Chief Developer for V Development Group
Everything I post I do so as a private individual who is not representing any company or organization.
Broad thoughts only for an open forum.
Get inside. Most things you can get behind for cover are NOT cover from highly elevated rifle fire. A rifle with decent glass for threat ID and laying hate. Without a rifle, close on the threat using buildings as cover.
Last edited by LSP552; 10-02-2017 at 11:21 AM.
If it's a building occupied by innocents with no cover (such as a hotel vs a clock tower), your only option to engage the subject is a DMR (extremely rare in LE, most patrol rifles are wearing iron sights alone or an RDS) or a sniper.
Which leaves the aforementioned option......get inside.
Probably a good reinforcement of why patrol guys, and not just swat, should have easy access to breaching tools for active shooter situations.
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Pythagoras. Operator AF.
Start with HS geometry, A^2 + B^2 = C^2, then calculate the angles. If the shooter is 32 stories (~320 feet) up, the responder is 300 yds (900ft) away, the line of sight is ~318 yds on a ~19 deg up angle. The window is probably about 6'x6', humanoid target, in a congested background of no-shoots. Visibility and relative target size decline with increasing angle. What tools are best for the task, what are the responder's capabilities, where is the counterattack?
Last edited by ST911; 10-02-2017 at 12:17 PM.
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