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Thread: Death Jam with 92A1 and WWB: gun locked up. Opnions wanted.

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.
    This is excellent advice, I for one would not miss the forward assist on M16 for this reason.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GOTURBACK View Post
    It's a pain in the ass but you can also drop each one in your barrel to test fit...
    I chamber check ALL of my .38 Specials before shooting. Come to think of it...all of my .44 Specials, too..and .357, .41, & .44 Magnums...

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.
    What was interesting on the Glock was I initially couldn't tell it wasn't in battery. The trigger just went dead. My initial thought was a broken gun. Since I was at the range and could do some analysis, I pulled the mag, racked the slide (with more effort than normal), and dry-fired. Clicked like normal.

    Inserted the magazine, chambered next round. Bang. No problem.

    Put the ejected round on top of the magazine and chambered it. Trigger would not release. This time the slide was much harder to rack to eject the round.

    I figured it had to be an out of spec round and put it in my "dispose" box. In retrospect, it may not have been wise to give a possibly bad round a second chance.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter Cool Breeze's Avatar
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    To the OP - This happened to me on a Glock 26 with wwb

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Cool Breeze; 10-02-2017 at 08:26 PM.

  5. #25
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV_ View Post
    I have not been so lucky. They will lock up a Glock really quick. Here are a few more:

    Attachment 20552

    Quote Originally Posted by fixer View Post

    My god what a monument to bad ammo.
    Notice also that the cases are irregularly machined. The grooves are all different depths and widths. I don't have access to an optical comparator to see if they fall within SAAMI tolerances, but I'm betting many of them don't. Particularly the one on the right, you can see the groove is non-concentric to the main case body, so the length of the tapered part is longer on one side than the other. The short side is also shallower. From my study of the problem, it's this inconsistency that leads to adverse interactions with a Sig classic P series long extractor, in which the case is left in the chamber. If a groove is shallow or short, the front of the extractor may ride up the taper slightly and be thrown outward when the round fires, and fail to come back down in time to catch the rim as the slide moves away from the barrel. It's totally inconsistent, and even a given case will have a random outcome. The case on the far right might run if the extractor was engaged with the deeper part of the groove on the left side of the picture and FTE if the extractor was working with the shallower part of the groove toward the right of the picture. I've had some lots of ammo go 100 rounds without a failure on the M11-A1, and I've had one lot yield ~20/100 FTEs leaving the case in the chamber.

    If you look at a bunch of cases, there is a very distinct difference between the WWB and others. And it has nothing to do with "cheap" - Academy-branded PPU headstamps at $9.99/box are consistent and Sig-compatible in this detail, at least as far as I've seen.

    I've seen an issue on a .38 Special WWB round that led to the local Academy pulling all their stock of that SKU from the shelf before I left the store. Amazingly defective case. The mouth had been wavy, almost as if it was cut with a hole saw cutting at right angles to the case long axis. The loading process had just pressed the excess case material into the bullet, so the bullet would have had to swage about half of its perimeter past a thickness of case mouth to get moving down the barrel. Maybe in a .357 chamber, it wouldn't have mattered much. I opened one box and pulled one round to look at it, and that was the one. I've been told I have special powers to be able to do things like that...

    Personally, I'm done buying WWB. Even when it runs, it's weak, inconsistent and dirty, and leaves unburned flakes all over the inside of the gun and on my arms. It's rarely cheaper than much better alternatives, even when you buy it at Walmart.
    Last edited by OlongJohnson; 10-02-2017 at 09:47 PM.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  6. #26
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    What ever happened to "if I wouldn't drink their water, I won't shoot their ammo"...

    Perhaps Winchester has a new plant in Flint

    Or, shit happens with the best of them, sometimes.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    From an armorer perspective: NEVER force a slide or bolt into battery. If it won't close and lock, it's talking to you. Listen to what it says. It's telling you there is a mechanical obstruction in the works that must be identified and remedied. That also, perhaps specifically, includes the forward assist on the M16/M4/AR15.
    Wayne, good advice. What amount of force would be tolerable?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Notice also that the cases are irregularly machined. The grooves are all different depths and widths. I don't have access to an optical comparator to see if they fall within SAAMI tolerances, but I'm betting many of them don't. Particularly the one on the right, you can see the groove is non-concentric to the main case body, so the length of the tapered part is longer on one side than the other. The short side is also shallower. From my study of the problem, it's this inconsistency that leads to adverse interactions with a Sig classic P series long extractor, in which the case is left in the chamber. If a groove is shallow or short, the front of the extractor may ride up the taper slightly and be thrown outward when the round fires, and fail to come back down in time to catch the rim as the slide moves away from the barrel. It's totally inconsistent, and even a given case will have a random outcome. The case on the far right might run if the extractor was engaged with the deeper part of the groove on the left side of the picture and FTE if the extractor was working with the shallower part of the groove toward the right of the picture. I've had some lots of ammo go 100 rounds without a failure on the M11-A1, and I've had one lot yield ~20/100 FTEs leaving the case in the chamber.
    Is there something about the long-extractor SIGs that make them more likely to have issues with poor ammo than other guns with similar extractor designs? I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was causing all the FTExtracts on my M11A1, yours is the best explanation I've heard so far but the FTEs happened with a variety of ammo, same stuff I had put through a long extractor P226 with no issue.
    "Customer is very particular" -- SIG Sauer

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiroFijo View Post
    Wayne, good advice. What amount of force would be tolerable?
    No force. Your first move is to run the slide, which hopefully dumps the problem on the deck and loads a new round. You can push on it, and maybe it moves forward a bit. It doesn't lock....and now it doesn't open either. You want that on your hands?
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  10. #30
    Chamber check all carry rounds and match rounds.

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