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Thread: Raw speed

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by nucci View Post
    From an effectiveness and survival viewpoint I fully agree.

    It may be a sidetrack, but I'm curious how this approach plays out as a CCW shoot in a left America state.
    If an action you take is directly linked to your success in surviving the encounter then it is probably justified. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that is why you need to continue to analyze the situation as it evolves. Stop shooting if the threat is ended. In a defensive shooting the end goal is not to kill or injure, it is to stop the threat as quickly and decisively as possible. It so happens that this could be fatal to the attacker.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
    Perhaps time to action? If we assume action is shooting then time to action would include shooting speed but add in things that do matter like recognizing you're in a fight and that you need to do something.
    Totally agree.
    David S.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    To my knowledge, blazing fast speed hasn’t been a factor in any of Tom Given’s accounts. Based on my single ECQC class, blazing fast speed wasn’t a decisive factor in any of the evos that I witnessed.

    As far as I can tell, Givens, Douglas, Dobbs and Bolke have all gone out of their way to say that the raw speed diminishing returns curve gets really flat around a two second draw time and 0.3 - 0.5 splits. Fortunately both of those standards are very attainable by most healthy people.

    I believe there is just too much other important stuff that needs to be included in a well prepared cop or civilian defender’s skill set to be working in the flat part of any particular diminishing returns curve.

    Are resources better invested in RAW SPEED or acquiring proficiency in PUC, MUC, S&C, IFWA, edged weapons, less-lethal, medical, legal, long guns, criminal psychology, etc, etc, etc. If we step out of the personal defense industry in to the wider preparedness industry. Do you have enough food, water, electric, fuel, shelter, climate control, medicine, etc. to survive a routine disaster (two hurricanes, widespread wildfires and earthquake have all hit North America in the last couple weeks). Can you weather a job loss or a 2008 level financial “crisis”? How about a death or illness of a spouse, parent or child? Is your family prepared for your death or major illness?

    Cuz all that stuff can kill you or wreck your life too.

    I supposed it depends on where you are in the journey and how constrained your time and resources are. YMMV, and all that.
    I don't believe I've ever read or heard a specific time from Mr. Givens with the exception of one interview which I can't seem to find. I do believe that it was with Marty Hayes but my memory is terrible unless I wrote it down, don't quote me. Maybe Mr. Givens can chime in if he is on the board but I think I heard him say somewhere around 2-2.5 seconds to get the gun out up and get sighted fire. Again I could be wrong and confusing this with something else but I don't think so. I will try to find the interview. Here is an interview where he talks about having to get the gun out quickly and make accurate hits under pressure. The start of this conversation is about the 3:55 mark. https://youtu.be/j4BBr4wUSIg.

    Either way you slice it raw speed does not hurt so long as it can be applied with the required amount of marksmanship for the shot, (stolen from someone else). PUC, MUC, and everything else won't help you if your not aware enough to see it coming, or you end up in an unequal initiative as SN would call it. When your behind the power curve raw speed is the only thing that will close the gap and give you a fighting chance when there is no team to back you up and MUC, SA has failed you. Blind luck, God's hand also plays a role no doubt but processing things more quickly visually or being able to react quickly to close the gap can't hurt; as a matter of fact there is plenty of data to the contrary. I don't see how this information could be ignored. I will say that there is a matter of prioritizing your training based on capabilities, training budget, time constraints etc. as you stated so I do understand. Although it costs nothing to dry fire and do holster work for 5-10m a day to increase or maintain speed of the draw. Most people spend more time on the porcelain throne. I do agree about some of the general preparedness for life in general though.
    Last edited by Mike C; 09-20-2017 at 02:53 PM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by SJC3081 View Post
    I think the real dangerous man, is a man willing to kill. No hesitation and moderate skill make a very dangerous adversary. A well trained shooter who is willing is someone to fear. Many LEOs are very well trained but hesitate and are reluctantly willing.
    From first command to the end of shooting is only 15 seconds aprox. They had every opportunity to shoot him and didn't.

    I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
    The lunatics are running the asylum

  5. #85
    I am hoping @Tom Givens comments in this thread.

    I have always been quite interested in the statistics he has collected over many years, and there have been references to those statistics in this thread. If you study the experiences of his students, you would think you do not need a hi-cap pistol, night sights, a WML, a BUG, a blazing draw, bullseye accuracy, experience with ECQC, or extreme fitness. You also do not have high risk at home. However, I note that Tom himself has a very fast draw, carries a BUG, prioritizes speed and accuracy with a form of hit factor scoring, and sleeps in a hardened house with an 870 nearby. Perhaps his personal standards go way beyond the requirement for surviving a typical confrontation.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I am hoping @Tom Givens comments in this thread.

    I have always been quite interested in the statistics he has collected over many years, and there have been references to those statistics in this thread. If you study the experiences of his students, you would think you do not need a hi-cap pistol, night sights, a WML, a BUG, a blazing draw, bullseye accuracy, experience with ECQC, or extreme fitness. You also do not have high risk at home. However, I note that Tom himself has a very fast draw, carries a BUG, prioritizes speed and accuracy with a form of hit factor scoring, and sleeps in a hardened house with an 870 nearby. Perhaps his personal standards go way beyond the requirement for surviving a typical confrontation.

    Each shooting incident is unique, and different factors will be the determining one from one shooting to the next, even if the number of assailants, distance, etc are the same.

    I detest, DETEST, the term "average gunfight". I note that you did not use that term, GJM. There is no such animal. To have an average you have to mash big numbers and small numbers together, and you get a result that usually bears no resemblance to reality. As an example, take two of our student shootings. One involved 1 shot at 22 yards, one involved 11 shots at 4 yards. The average of those is 6 shots at 13 yards, which bears no resemblance to either.

    We have had shootings where speed was definitely a deciding factor. We have had shootings where utmost precision was required (past the spouse's head to hit the Dude trying to shoot him, from 15 yards away, or the above mentioned 22 yard shot).

    I like to hedge my bets. We've had shootings requiring 11-12 shots, so I carry a pistol that holds a lot of ammo. We have had shootings that require precision, so I carry a pistol I can shoot 2" groups with at 25 yards, in practice. I've investigated home invasions where the victim was not a scumbag, with as many as 4 - 7 invaders, so my house gun is a short barreled shotgun really full of buckshot. You get the idea. I'm not preparing for some bullshit "average" fight.

    In our basic classes, we look for 3 rounds at 3 yards in 3 seconds, from concealment, with good hits as a baseline. Of course, if you can do that faster, with good hits, I'm all for it.
    Last edited by Tom Givens; 09-20-2017 at 10:32 PM.

  7. #87
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post

    I detest, DETEST, the term "average gunfight".
    No one will ever tell you that their gunfight was average.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Agreed -- very refreshing to have a interesting software discussion without butt hurt.

    I had taken as gospel that the combination of solid manipulations, great accuracy and reasonable speed was the 99 percent solution, and that extreme speed was mostly germane to gaming. The murders in Anchorage and my recent square range shooting experience with that young man, made me question my belief on the modest speed part, especially at engagement distances inside ten yards where marksmanship proficiency is diminished by proximity.

    Pure speculation, but just as the "average person" supposedly can fire .25 splits at close range, I guesstimate that the average person draws in the 1.50-1.75 range. With all the caveats about maintaining situational awareness, great tactics, etc, if you can draw and fire two to three accurate shots in less than 1.50, it would seem to be a meaningful advantage. I am not sure that the work it takes to get a concealed draw well below one second pencils, but the ability to make a one second draw and two accurate .25 splits seems time well spent.
    Somewhat related experience.

    I took an experienced hunter to the range I practice to shoot a handgun for the first time ever. It was amazing that his shots with a stock G19 at 15, 20, 25 yards were at a level that took me years to reach.

    Some folks also have 'raw skill' too.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    Each shooting incident is unique, and different factors will be the determining one from one shooting to the next, even if the number of assailants, distance, etc are the same.

    I detest, DETEST, the term "average gunfight". I note that you did not use that term, GJM. There is no such animal. To have an average you have to mash big numbers and small numbers together, and you get a result that usually bears no resemblance to reality. As an example, take two of our student shootings. One involved 1 shot at 22 yards, one involved 11 shots at 4 yards. The average of those is 6 shots at 13 yards, which bears no resemblance to either.

    We have had shootings where speed was definitely a deciding factor. We have had shootings where utmost precision was required (past the spouse's head to hit the Dude trying to shoot him, from 15 yards away, or the above mentioned 22 yard shot).

    I like to hedge my bets. We've had shootings requiring 11-12 shots, so I carry a pistol that holds a lot of ammo. We have had shootings that require precision, so I carry a pistol I can shoot 2" groups with at 25 yards, in practice. I've investigated home invasions where the victim was not a scumbag, with as many as 4 - 7 invaders, so my house gun is a short barreled shotgun really full of buckshot. You get the idea. I'm not preparing for some bullshit "average" fight.

    In our basic classes, we look for 3 rounds at 3 yards in 3 seconds, from concealment, with good hits as a baseline. Of course, if you can do that faster, with good hits, I'm all for it.
    Mr. Givens, thank you for dropping in and participating. Would you be willing to state what you look for at for at the intermediate and advanced levels as well? I am specifically interested in your thoughts on time, distance, rough accuracy standards. I believe you've walkabout about owning anything two car lengths and in. By the way my apologies if I mis quoted you on the time constraints in my earlier post. Thank you.
    Last edited by Mike C; 09-21-2017 at 06:56 AM.

  10. #90
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    I feel that it's dangerous to focus on just one aspect. Too many factors that come into play.

    I feel that it's vital to utilize good shot placement and the appropriate tactics, before your adversary can do the same to you.

    The closer the engagement distance is, the more important speed will be. Speed can be raw speed of the draw and first round on target. It can also be linked to one's situational awareness, or lack there of. If at the moment things go south, your situational awareness is turned off, then all of this discussion is mute. . .

    I feel the response posted by Tom Givens should be re-read by anyone reading this topic. I really like the statement he makes where he feels there is no "average gunfight". The problem, at least for the LE community, is that there does exist an "average officer" as it relates to skill set. Many LEO's and many civilian CCW holders are not "shooters". By that I mean they do not enjoy training and developing their personal skill set by constantly pushing themelves. These are the ones who only shoot when mandated. And their only goal is to pass their agency's qualification or as a CCW holder, to pass their state's CCW qualification course in order to get their permit. Both of these qualification courses are tests, they are not training. Much as the driver's test from the BMV is a skill test, it is not where a teenager goes to learn how to drive a car.

    But as "shooters" who are interested in training and developing our skill set, it is easy for one to become arrogant and overconfident in their ability to defend and protect. I've seen the people who are Master Class shooters with awards and trophies, who think that no street thug is a match for them. While it's true that one's skill set may surpass the thug who is now your adversary. But up close, these "thugs" can rely on a combination of speed, surprise and violence of action. Poor situational awareness and a hesitation to respond to a threat with lethal force will negate all of the skill in the world.

    I am not a SME. But I believe the art of the self defense pistol is about balance. A combination of speed and accuracy. A combination of situational awareness and the proper deployment of good tactics.

    When I train, I go into it thinking that the person I need to be prepared to go agains is myself.

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