Raw speed

[JHC]

And then there is this:

Attachment 20144

I gotta get me some of those targets!

[holmes168]

@GJM great discussion as I've thought thru the same thing. Basically speed vs accuracy. I'd fall on the side of putting multiple rounds into someone over taking rounds lining up the perfect shot.
I've equated my training with what I heard from a golf coach years ago- hit the ball as hard as you can for now. The accuracy will work itself out. I try to work very hard on my speed doing drills and then hit accuracy on things like Dot Torture. I want to keep getting faster right now and the craft in my accuracy.

Just my inexperienced thoughts- I've im doing something idiotic please comment, but just the way I think.

[LSP552]

Tactics are what win fights. Not raw speed.

Speed is a tactic. So much of what we emphasize is often based on our personal experiences and those of our peers. I'm personally aware of several LSP shootings where raw speed was a significant factor in winning, including one I was in. LSP in my time put a lot of emphasis on being able to draw quickly and get hits.

There are regional and environmental factors at play here. LSP patrol guys typically work alone and often backup in rural areas is 20-30 minutes away. Lots of our shootings happened around cars, not surprisingly. Often there is little warning that the traffic stop is anything other than a traffic stop, until someone steps out with a gun.

For me personally, I was working UC negotiating a drug deal with a dirt bag in the front seat of a car. He decided to draw a gun from under a jacket instead of reaching for the drugs. I started my draw from appendix under a jacket when I saw his pistol. I was able to get 3 hits and he got none.

I'm alive today because of speed work. Awareness also played a part because my warning senses were working overtime so I was ready for things to go South.

Having said all that. If you can't get hits, speed won't do you any good. What gets overlooked is how distance factors into the issue. At arms length, the unskilled can get hits so speed matters more up close.

[JohnO]

YVK and I were discussing anatomy last night, since that is something he is professionally familiar with. He said that the brain is the only certain switch to immediately turn off a human, and at very close distances a mortally wounded person could still do some trigger pulling against you. To me, that suggests speed and accuracy -- as in upper CNS accuracy.

Precisely why I decided that the CNS would be my go to target within the distance I'm comfortable with a high probability of success. Undoubtedly there exists the possibility that an individual can absorb multiple rounds COM with little or no immediate effect. Multiple fatal wounds delivered however all they accomplished was to start the timer. Why then give up that initial time of shooting those rounds that did not have the the immediate desired effect plus the time to assess and run your OODA loop and initiate a failure drill? If I have to take an extra couple tenths of a second to assure a accurate CNS shot I feel it is time well spent.

[45dotACP]

On a "wide open" target at close range, I expect a CNS hit would be my go to.

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[NETim]

On a "wide open" target at close range, I expect a CNS hit would be my go to.

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I believe that would be my first choice as well, as long as the head was at least moderately stationary.

[JHC]

Raw speed. The term pretty much suggests speed OVER accuracy otherwise it wouldn't be called "raw speed" right?

In the context of defensive or offensive shooting, the following base of experience says precision to hit a grapefruit sized target is the dominant priority for reasons of achieving the desired effects and for the accountability of rounds fired, ie misses endanger the non-combatants including team mates, family members, the public at large etc.

Dagga Boy's wealth of operational experience.

Wayne Dobb's ditto.

HRT based on their training and quals.

LAPD SWAT based on their training and quals.

Pretty much AFAIK all the former JSOC gunfighters that publish or train on the topic.

That is a clue.

Max splits/speed whatever HOPING for telling hits is not the way.

[octagon]

Speed is a factor as is accuracy and targeted area but there are no real sure things. I came across this today.

http://www.docbastard.net/2017/02/superhero.html?m=1

I also don't remember the exact details but there was the officer shooting incident where the officer chased a shoplifter and in a struggle was shot in the face/jaw. There is also the female California officer shot in the heart and several others I can think of just off the top of my head where apparently solid shot placement in a very important location did not end the threat. Some of these were timers type hits and some were what were intended to switch type hits. The Jim Cirillo incident where the gun blows his nose after being shot in the face and sneezes out the bullet is just one. Some of these are due to the bullet/cartridge used but some incidents are not and just a slight angle or hit location such as some head hits with good caliber/rounds that hit slightly high or were at an angle to allow for deflection.

Another factor(s) is the ability to hit the same small head shot hit a person may be able to do well on when they are on the range, with a stationary, target, known to them it's location and distance ahead of time and not shooting back vs the realities of a gunfight. Jon at ASP(Active Self Protection) calls it the FIBS(Fuck I have Been Shot) or FIBSA(Fuck I am Being Shot At )factor. This is very real effect and never seems to help one shoot better in either case. Now some deranged,suicidal, or drugged up person may ignore risk and injury but the defenders are hopefully not under the same influence and thus more likely to be affected by the FIBS and FIBSA factors.

I don't know what the answer is or if there can even be one as context matters. But for me I start with high center chest targeted area and work subsequent hits upward to neck, then head. I can only hope that first hits work through psychological factors including FIBS and FIBSA, they start a timer hit and if they don't I hope they aren't slow enough that when I get the solid head shot to reach and hit a switch I haven't been to slow in getting there.

[scw2]

Dagga Boy's wealth of operational experience.

Wayne Dobb's ditto.

I am always reminded about DB and Wayne stressing the failure drill as a solid default response. In light of this topic, it seems like a good trade-off of speed/accuracy and timers/switches. The more I think about it, the more their recommendation has seemed to make sense over the past few months.

[GJM]

I don't want this discussion to fall into the common internet trap, of turning this into speed vs accuracy, or speed versus thoughtful tactics choice. The accuracy standard is upper CNS, and the tactics are "best available."

In Anchorage just in September, there were multiple murders in stores, where either the speed of the perpetrator, or depending on your point of view the lack of speed by the four victims, resulted in their untimely deaths. I have never seen statistics, which does not mean they don't exist, of what percentage of armed police officers and civilians, are killed due to lack of raw speed. My gut, though, says raw speed plays a big part in the outcome of conflicts where both parties are armed. It also plays a big part in the outcome of conflicts with unarmed, big, dark furry things.