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Thread: Raw speed

  1. #111
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    I did an experiment with some SWAT Officers. They were going through some FoF training with regular patrol officers. They were a bit bored. So as they brought up their gun I simply tried to sidestep as they fired the pistol...

    My above point is that speed minimizes the time the bad guy has to move. This is heavily involved with the stop shooting command, when the bad guy decides to start moving, why they decide to stop moving. This is even more true of officers who had their pistol in the holster when they decided to draw and shoot. For that reason it's even more important to civilians who typically start their shooting from the holster.
    I would be hesitant to draw too much from lab testing where the "target" knows what's coming vs how things really happen. Being able to side step while knowing its coming, under no other mental load (no verbal component, a very compressed and unrealistic scanning for pre-attack indicator, no weapon of your own, no goal other than to move, etc.) likely being compressed to move already, etc. in the instant an experienced shooter transitions to front sight focus is not particularly relevant to the real world. Watch videos of shootings and debrief survivors and you won't see much in the way of twisting or lateral movement, although lateral movement is (as you said) a big help in not getting shot. People who were stationary when the draw started are still stationary until the shot breaks, sometimes after. What you normally see is people rooted or all out running (either fleeing or for cover). Particularly for the citizen who's been able to disguise the draw or otherwise wait for diverted attention, I've yet to see attempt to dodge a shot by the bad guy. There's just insufficient reaction time to do so outside of lab conditions, particularly when under the mental load of being in the real event. The number of bad guys who've programmed a lateral step to the subconscious level probably isn't zero...but it's real close.

    Raw speed hits diminishing returns pretty quickly. If you use proper tactics yourself, the window is longer than most think. If you use lousy tactics, you'll never be fast enough and will simply rely on luck.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I would be hesitant to draw too much from lab testing where the "target" knows what's coming vs how things really happen. Being able to side step while knowing its coming, under no other mental load (no verbal component, a very compressed and unrealistic scanning for pre-attack indicator, no weapon of your own, no goal other than to move, etc.) likely being compressed to move already, etc. in the instant an experienced shooter transitions to front sight focus is not particularly relevant to the real world. Watch videos of shootings and debrief survivors and you won't see much in the way of twisting or lateral movement, although lateral movement is (as you said) a big help in not getting shot. People who were stationary when the draw started are still stationary until the shot breaks, sometimes after. What you normally see is people rooted or all out running (either fleeing or for cover). Particularly for the citizen who's been able to disguise the draw or otherwise wait for diverted attention, I've yet to see attempt to dodge a shot by the bad guy. There's just insufficient reaction time to do so outside of lab conditions, particularly when under the mental load of being in the real event. The number of bad guys who've programmed a lateral step to the subconscious level probably isn't zero...but it's real close.

    Raw speed hits diminishing returns pretty quickly. If you use proper tactics yourself, the window is longer than most think. If you use lousy tactics, you'll never be fast enough and will simply rely on luck.

    First of all just to clarify, I'm not suggesting people should move laterally to avoid a bullet like we were in some 70's kung fu movie. LOL. I'm suggesting that when those people who chose to run at the start of a gunfight do in fact do what I described. Why am I so confident about that? Bio-mechanics of the human body. That's just how it happens when people move. Do you believe that the action reaction dynamic of a lateral step by officers is worthwhile? If so why would you question that dynamic when it occurs, not as a tactic, but just naturally when people start moving in reaction to a gunfight? If the officer has time to do it then the bad guy does too. Again it's not programmed for them to side step, it's programmed in them to turn and run.

    Those people who run all out have to start moving. In my town they tend to fire at each other as they run. That includes shooting at the cops. Officers in my agency had a tendency not to hit those people with the first few rounds who run. I became interested in this because officers in our agency where trained to shoot moving targets on the range and in FoF. But sometimes they just missed. In those instances it appeared to me a timing issue. BTW we stayed over 80% hit rate as a department for years. Our firearms coordinator did a great job in training our officers. I say this because we didn't have much problem hitting the bad guy if they didn't run or move.

    As for your idea on Raw speed and diminishing returns, I agree somewhat. But in my town it's a rough split during robberies between armed and strong arm. Strangely enough someone with a gun saying, "Give me all your money" and then waiting for the good news is actually easier to deal with than the strong arm. Someone who decides to hit you in the head with that bat, cane or stick and then empty your pockets themselves is explaining to the victim a new definition of raw speed vs gaining time using tactics. That last fact is not up to you. It's up to me, the bad guy. I tend to shy away from pretending to know how the shooting will occur when I'm not in control of that. I simply like to look at the most likely (bell curve) and pick my tactics that will allow me to win all of the most likely. Then I can train to use those same tactics for those black swan type incidents.

    As far as disregarding experimentation that just makes no sense. Experiments are great for confirming tactics won't work. But you are correct in being cautious if someone is saying that experiment proves something, 100%. Some of the recent ideas in police tactics have been based on framing experimentation by Force Science. As long as we understand that it is a framing experiment then we can stay on track.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  3. #113
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    First of all just to clarify, I'm not suggesting people should move laterally to avoid a bullet like we were in some 70's kung fu movie. LOL. I'm suggesting that when those people who chose to run at the start of a gunfight do in fact do what I described. Why am I so confident about that? Bio-mechanics of the human body. That's just how it happens when people move. Do you believe that the action reaction dynamic of a lateral step by officers is worthwhile? If so why would you question that dynamic when it occurs, not as a tactic, but just naturally when people start moving in reaction to a gunfight? If the officer has time to do it then the bad guy does too. Again it's not programmed for them to side step, it's programmed in them to turn and run.
    The lateral step is worthwhile, particularly when combined with the draw stroke and done as a surprise to the adversary. IIRC, @TomGivens incorporates it into his curriculum. I do the same, once the student is skilled enough to incorporate it without fumbling the draw and still getting good hits. Those who are untrained and cannot execute subconsciously have too much mental load to get through the OODA loop, draw, present, fire, and move simultaneously. Their conscious brain is just too busy to do it all at once. Which is one reason subconscious performance is so important and what works under very sterile conditions often falls apart in the messiness of a real encounter.

    It has the same effect on your opponent as when you move around a bit when you start seeing pre-attack indicators like weight shifts. It's more mental load for them on the Observe and Orient of the OODA loop than vs a stationary target. There is also the difference in action vs reaction, and in the speed of subconscious execution.

    The natural reaction is not lateral movement. People don't flee laterally. They twist to turn around to flee, but that's a split second. Then you're back to squared up, just facing the other way.

    Finally, the guy who comes up and hits you with a stick is also not a raw speed issue, particularly in the context presented here of reasonable speed and accuracy from the holster. Awareness, managing contacts, etc. are going to be what makes the difference, not a few tenths of a second of draw speed.

    There *are* instances when raw speed matters. They are almost always when you fucked everything else up. I've been there. I really really try to not be there again.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 09-29-2017 at 01:03 PM. Reason: fixing "mention"

  4. #114
    Of course the problem with speed, accuracy, caliber, capacity and tactics, is you don't know how much of each you needed until after the event is over.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #115

    Man, am I glad I found this thread...

    A lotta goodness here, pertaining to something I have been contemplating for a number of years. I am not an SME and I have no real world experience getting shot at, but a while ago I started thinking that getting shot would most likely degrade my ability to shoot. This caused me to question some of our (the interested community) accepted bias between speed and accuracy. I also wonder if what are considered "good hits" are hits on targets that are used to decide the winner at a match (that must decide a winner between skilled people). And I wonder if "split times" are really only relevant to what we know will be stationary targets.

    As a result, in our little peer group that shoots drills on Sundays, I have been shooting faster than I used to, and it has been interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    The murders in Anchorage and my recent square range shooting experience with that young man, made me question my belief on the modest speed part, especially at engagement distances inside ten yards where marksmanship proficiency is diminished by proximity. ... if you can draw and fire two to three accurate shots in less than 1.50, it would seem to be a meaningful advantage.
    I am not quite that fast, but one of the group is much more accurate than I am, but comparing times in many cases I would have shot him more than once before he delivered his first accurate shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    Regarding hits: agreed CNS hits are instant fight stoppers, but I also feel that in a real engagement you take what you can get, and hits aren't nothing. ... "slow them, cripple them, kill them." ... I also recall how Southnarc talks about "reducing" an adversary.
    Reduce your adversary, before they reduce you?

    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    They can pull a trigger that fast, the way I understood the subject, not the same as firing splits.
    And the dirt bag will not be firing splits, they will be manipulating the trigger as fast as they athletically can.

    Quote Originally Posted by schüler View Post
    Ofc Butler was shot in his dominant arm before he could draw. More than likely a lucky series of shots but further illustration to me of GJM’s point.
    The unskilled and irresponsible adversary just needs to get lucky once, then they could more easily close on you to the point where skill was not a factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wondering Beard View Post
    Disable his body. ... Gaining in raw speed can sure be helpful in that, but I'll only go as fast as I can still apply the four Ds, and I won't if I outrun my headlights.
    Yup, I would want to do the disabling first.

    Anyway, sorry for the info blast, but all of a sudden there was a thread about something I have been thinking about for a long while.

    For newbies, I think we probably expect more accuracy than we should, and probably slow them down too much. If it takes them four seconds to land an A, they probably woulda been better off with two Bs in that timeframe.

    And I think we get warm and fuzzy when we (I do...) shoot a target that we know is gonna stay right there really fast with a pistol that doesn't recoil. GJM's friend was performing pretty well with a 10mm.

  6. #116
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    As a developmental consideration for an enthusiast, I think it is important to divorce the concepts of accuracy from speed, in the mind. I'm not saying there isn't a practical relationship there in many instances. Often there is, but in many other instances there isn't/doesn't have to be. And it's very limiting to a shooting enthusiast's development to believe that in order to be faster, they will be less accurate, and in order to be more accurate, they will have to be slower.

    The actual, measurable difference in time between an aimed and an unaimed shot can be negligible or nonexistent. The true difference is a sharp and overriding mental intention to aim the shot, instead of not especially bothering to aim. So the trick becomes to move the body at the full speed it can go, but be mentally deliberate and committed to firing an accurate shot. I feel like I have read that somewhere lol.
    I do an exercise that illustrates the accuracy & time relationship. I start out shooting Bulls at 25 yards slow aimed fire. I put my methodical standard down on paper. Now I turn up the tempo and evaluate. After a string of 10 rounds I decided to see how fast I can go and still get good hits. Simply what I prove:
    Good sight alignment doesn't get better it usually degrades if you hesitate trying to make it perfect. If you have acceptable sight alignment/picture use it.
    Determinate in obtaining the fast accurate hit is consistent weapon presentation to the target along with the ability to find/verify/adjust the sights. Better presentation consistency enables faster sight acquisition and less sight alignment adjustments.

    A few additional comments.
    It is worthwhile to run this drill from different start positions. Holster v. Ready Position. You might be surprised over which is quicker.
    Adjust the distance to your individual level of skill.
    Those who use the Press, Press ... Surprise Break method to shoot accurately when time is unlimited will learn their capabilities of breaking a shot quickly without disturbing the sights.

  7. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    ....
    Those who use the Press, Press ... Surprise Break method to shoot accurately when time is unlimited will learn their capabilities of breaking a shot quickly without disturbing the sights.
    That is me this summer. Been shooting at paper for maybe 18 yrs but this past spring started to try to do double and triple taps from low ready and from holster. I had been working on a heavier pretravel trigger on my M&P9c using the Apex duty/carry kit. Shooting slowly I could feel all the nuances of each change I made to the trigger. As I started to pick up the pace, at one point, I noticed that all those nuances go away and it's just one pull til it fires. I am sure the weight and smoothness have an effect on how well I can hit at speed, but I can't feel them as individual stages of the entire trigger travel.

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