Tactical Reload is it time to revisit the technique

[AMC]

There is not as much disagreement as you seem to believe, here. Do some people spend too much time practicing low probability skills like tactical reloads? Probably. Are there many cases where you are better served just dumping the partial and doing an in battery speed load? Undoubtedly. I get the idea of having limited training time with unmotivated students. Believe me. I've heard of LE instructors locally advocating what you are suggesting. But do I believe we should just jettison the technique? Nope. Not for me. I'll keep it in my bag o' tricks. Realistically I practice it maybe twice a year, and that seems to be sufficient.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In my class for civilians, I use a pizza box. It doesn't take a ton of reps to ingrain dropping what you are carrying to get a gun in your hand(s). Prior to training, yes, you see people holding on to it (or more commonly throwing it, wasting time vs just dropping it) but once they have it pointed out to them, not a big deal.

Funny - at an old NTI, we had to go to a building with a pizza to meet friends. When you got to the entrance, you see blood and have to go save your friends. There was a debate about should you go in - call the law. However, you had to. Surprisingly, the staff said most folks took the pizza. I got some praise for actually dropping the pizza. Ha. I've mentioned this before.

In an IDPA match, we had a brief case full of 'diamonds' that we were transporting. You were supposed to carry it through the stage. I ditched it and got the penalty. Later, we had it handcuffed to us - a total pain - physically as well as gun manipulation.

[Clobbersaurus]

Do some people spend too much time practicing low probability skills like tactical reloads? Probably. Are there many cases where you are better served just dumping the partial and doing an in battery speed load? Undoubtedly.

I'm going to submit that if you are doing regular live fire and working primarily structured drills, you are likely needing to complete numerous tactical reloads every range session.

I know I do a bunch of tactical reloads each time I am at the range, not because I feel the need to practice them, but because I need to top off the gun for the next iteration of whatever drill I am working on. I can't invision a need to practice it otherwise because I do so many of them just to efficiently manage the ammo requirements of the drills I am doing.

[taadski]

Yes basically. The only difference between reload #2 and reload #3 is that the magazine is reached for,secured and moved toward the gun prior to dropping the partial magazine. This is done to ensure there is a full magazine available and reduces the amount of time the gun is a single shot weapon. Obvious the times here are fairly small but there is a difference that can easily be demonstrated even if it is small. I plan to try each technique with a timer to see how much difference there is for me between techniques. I would invite others to do the same but I think I pissed in enough people's cereal already if the comments are any indication.

I don’t know if you pissed in anyone’s cheerios. Hair splitting has always been a customary part of what makes PF PF. Split away… Whether or not it's a valuable use of time/brainpower is another matter entirely though.

IMO, the difference between a speed reload and your #3 load seems small enough that I’m not sure it deserves a different name. And yeah, I get that your pistol might be a single shot for a skosh less time, but I still don’t think the distinction is worth the squeeze.

Re pure time of the technique, part of what makes a speed reload efficient is that multiple things are occurring at once; you’re gaining the new mag with your support hand at the same you’re pressing the mag release and allowing the old mag to fall free from the pistol. In your suggested technique (#3), these things will be occurring separately and there will be an associated overall time penalty for that, all else being equal.

Regarding the topic of whether any of the above should serve to do away with reload-with-retention/tac loading skills, I’d agree with others and say NOT.

[octagon]

There is not as much disagreement as you seem to believe, here. Do some people spend too much time practicing low probability skills like tactical reloads? Probably. Are there many cases where you are better served just dumping the partial and doing an in battery speed load? Undoubtedly. I get the idea of having limited training time with unmotivated students. Believe me. I've heard of LE instructors locally advocating what you are suggesting. But do I believe we should just jettison the technique? Nope. Not for me. I'll keep it in my bag o' tricks. Realistically I practice it maybe twice a year, and that seems to be sufficient.

You basically hit on my experience. I have trained a few citizen friends over the years but 17 years worth of training LEOs the understanding of lack of motivation and limited time and ammo or budgets compared to the real risk has always had me thinking of how to get the most out of what we had while considering the end user. The serious shooters who practiced and put in effort didn't need much help but the large majority put in less effort and time and yet needed the skills and training/practice as much or more than the serious shooters. There was also the obvious diversity in size. Trying to get everyone to perform a skill that seemed easy for large handed shooters or shooters who put in a little effort on their own seemed counter productive. Simplifying the technique worked better and if it didn't sacrifice something critical in the simplification it made sense to incorporate it widely. We didn't prevent or discourage those who were capable of doing the more complex thing just encouraged achieving the basics if you weren't going to be as serious about it as the serious shooters. If that makes sense.

[octagon]

I don’t know if you pissed in anyone’s cheerios. Hair splitting has always been a customary part of what makes PF PF. Split away… Whether or not it's a valuable use of time/brainpower is another matter entirely though.

IMO, the difference between a speed reload and your #3 load seems small enough that I’m not sure it deserves a different name. And yeah, I get that your pistol might be a single shot for a skosh less time, but I still don’t think the distinction is worth the squeeze.

Re pure time of the technique, part of what makes a speed reload efficient is that multiple things are occurring at once; you’re gaining the new mag with your support hand at the same you’re pressing the mag release and allowing the old mag to fall free from the pistol. In your suggested technique (#3), these things will be occurring separately and there will be an associated overall time penalty for that, all else being equal.

Regarding the topic of whether any of the above should serve to do away with reload-with-retention/tac loading skills, I’d agree with others and say NOT.

Thanks for the supportive first lines. The web makes determining how irritated a poster is from their post pretty challenging.

I 100% agree that the time differences between any of the techniques or the fastest to the slowest is always going to be small. Time alone probably wouldn't justify the discussion in the first place. I know I wouldn't have started or kept the topic going if that was the only factor. The other issues may seem to be nuance but I think they have as much or more importance in thinking about the various reloads.

Robustness seems minor but for someone like me who doesn't always carry a spare mag or who switched between uniform carry of 2 spare mags and off duty/plain clothes carry of 1 spare mag or none sometimes the step of grasping the full spare mag before ejecting the partial could be an important difference between reload #2 and reload #3 techniques.

Dexterity being another point. I have smallish hands and trained with plenty of people who even with larger hands struggled to do the 1 handed magazine juggle from reload #1 technique and this was not under any or much stress at all. Maybe it gets overlooked by a person using a single stack or who has average to larger hands. Reloads #2 and #3 don't have this issue so they can work for large and small hand people just as easily.

Maybe this would be the same as robustness but reloads #2 and #3 are very similar to an administrative or slide lock reload(or whatever they are called ) as they use the same grasp and index on the magazine,angles and insertion force. They just eliminate the slide racking or dropping with slide release lever or other method. Reload#1 is the only skill that has 2 magazines in one hand and moving their position laterally and vertically under the gun. I look at it as the same benefit as using a retention shooting position the same as the number 2 part of the draw stroke.

These issues may be small differences like speed but somewhere all together there may be enough difference to consider.

[JHC]

IMO, the difference between a speed reload and your #3 load seems small enough that I’m not sure it deserves a different name. And yeah, I get that your pistol might be a single shot for a skosh less time, but I still don’t think the distinction is worth the squeeze.

Re pure time of the technique, part of what makes a speed reload efficient is that multiple things are occurring at once; you’re gaining the new mag with your support hand at the same you’re pressing the mag release and allowing the old mag to fall free from the pistol. In your suggested technique (#3), these things will be occurring separately and there will be an associated overall time penalty for that, all else being equal.

Regarding the topic of whether any of the above should serve to do away with reload-with-retention/tac loading skills, I’d agree with others and say NOT.

Man, just say it. P R O A C T I V E.

But good explanation. You're right. And as others have said here, make the tac reload the student's standard admin reload during range time and they'll have it down in no time. It's no more complicated than learning their pistol's basic manual of arms.

EDIT: hey, I've only trained a few friends and family members. Octagon may see more struggle with it. I don't know what I don't know. But I think it's worth figuring out how to be comfortable with it.

[Erick Gelhaus]

First off, I have to agree a bit with Mike Pannone. We clutter up technique and ideas a lot with names...especially "tactical". As Mike says....it's a magazine exchange...let's call it that. ... I remember a lot of "instructors" at one point in the late 90's poo-poohing the idea of the fast presentation from the holster, shooting on the move, and the "tactical" reload. In my one and only (God willing) shooting, I did all three. Did I need the new magazine, much less the partial one? Nope. But I had a gun with 12 rounds in it instead of 3....which was better.

I understand where Pannone is coming from (someday I'll get a class from him). I default to terms I've been using for a very long time. Probably my fault.

As for your event, thanks for sharing.

[Redhat]

I would suggest that if speed of completion is the most important factor, the "tactical reload" may not be best option. If I don't feel safe doing so I won't do it. A simple case of risk assessment in my mind.

One could also do a speed reload to top off, dropping the partial mag on the deck, getting the gun back up rapidly and then, if possible, retrieving the mag from the ground to stow it...if Murphy doesn't show up and that mag happens to fall into the weeds, down a drain...etc.

A couple of things I feel strongly about; I prefer my gun stay full and I want to keep all my ammo on me if possible. In any event, thew brain has to stay engaged.

[Redhat]

Deleted - double post