Tactical Reload is it time to revisit the technique

[Dagga Boy]

Thank you for explaining that. I hope we can all agree that the RWR will get you killed in the streets, and the Tac load is better than that.

Your experience performing the Tac load incorrectly under pressure, even after practice, is very interesting. That is a another data point that tells me that just letting the mag hit the floor is a better bet*.

(*for me - others can and will draw different conclusions)

Want to know why many of the fairly experienced folks on this kind of stuff have given up posting anything worthwhile.....this is why.

How IDPA does whatever they call a "Tac Reload" is one of those things that is not relevant to what it is for as a field technique, and by nature a Tac reload should not be done "on the clock". They took one of the most non-gamer elements of combative pistol gun handling and made it into something it is not. One of the first things you need to do to make the Tac Load (whichever technique is used, I am fairly agnostic as far as this goes) remotely relevant is run a hot range where guns are all loaded, carried loaded, and the people participating are responsible for their own ammo management. Doesn't sound remotely like IDPA or other sporting venues, or many LE programs.

Also, for those confusing Administrative loads and the Tac Load......you are not just doing it different, it is wrong. Purely Administrative loading and unloading are an entirely separate operation with their own procedures and have no place in any discussion with operational field use.

I gave up on all the "I ll pick it up later" techniques once I started seeing actual magazines and discarded and dropped things at crime scenes and what post shooting scans and environments often look like. I a, glad those advocating this have had so many positive experiences with the scenes and locations they are basing what they are teaching on where magazines are in pristine useable condition, actually still present, and right where the shooter thought they should be.

[Soggy]

Want to know why many of the fairly experienced folks on this kind of stuff have given up posting anything worthwhile.....this is why.

How IDPA does whatever they call a "Tac Reload" is one of those things that is not relevant to what it is for as a field technique, and by nature a Tac reload should not be done "on the clock". They took one of the most non-gamer elements of combative pistol gun handling and made it into something it is not. One of the first things you need to do to make the Tac Load (whichever technique is used, I am fairly agnostic as far as this goes) remotely relevant is run a hot range where guns are all loaded, carried loaded, and the people participating are responsible for their own ammo management. Doesn't sound remotely like IDPA or other sporting venues, or many LE programs.

Also, for those confusing Administrative loads and the Tac Load......you are not just doing it different, it is wrong. Purely Administrative loading and unloading are an entirely separate operation with their own procedures and have no place in any discussion with operational field use.

I gave up on all the "I ll pick it up later" techniques once I started seeing actual magazines and discarded and dropped things at crime scenes and what post shooting scans and environments often look like. I a, glad those advocating this have had so many positive experiences with the scenes and locations they are basing what they are teaching on where magazines are in pristine useable condition, actually still present, and right where the shooter thought they should be.

DB - I don't think I ever brought the gaming stuff into this thread. Other folks brought that info in, and if I misunderstood any of it I apologized.

I tried to keep the discussion on real world examples of why it was necessary to learn the tac reload. I mostly heard "you can learn it if you want to, and you should want to if you are serious". Never (not once!) has anyone presented an example of why I should learn it (or why it should be taught).

I don't care about picking up a spent mag later and leaving a nice neat crime scene. Why would I care about that? Not following. I just want to reload my gun at the right time the fastest, most reliable way I can. For me, that is what Tom Givens taught me a couple of months ago. It wasn't the Tac Reload.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

...One of the first things you need to do to make the Tac Load (whichever technique is used, I am fairly agnostic as far as this goes) remotely relevant is run a hot range where guns are all loaded, carried loaded, and the people participating are responsible for their own ammo management. Doesn't sound remotely like IDPA or other sporting venues, or many LE programs...

A local instructor does this for his classes and also runs the firearms training for a few smaller departments. I'd personally been questioning my preference for tactical reloads with a retained mag until one of his shotgun classes. I'd rather not be bending over on a hot line and cramming my Mossberg's muzzle into the dirt to chase a partial mag when the command to fire another string could come at any second. Would also rather be paying attention to the targets, other students, and scanning than play Where's Waldo? with a little black stick. Had no problem with two mags in my hand at a time and shoving the partial in my back pocket.

I'm also not a fan of removing and stowing the partial before drawing a full mag. Prefer knowing I have a second magazine that hasn't been lost before unloading my gun. I didn't pay attention to the other students' preferred technique but did notice they weren't dropping partials.

Come to think of it, I managed my shotgun cards differently and never thought of it until typing this post. I was removing partials for full ones as I got the chance and was tearing and shoving in a pocket before grabbing a fresh one. They are such a different beast that it would be a tangly mess to try having two in hand at once. Might spend some dryfire making sure I check for the replacement before peeling the partial, however.

[JohnO]

I'd rather not be bending over on a hot line and cramming my Mossberg's muzzle into the dirt to chase a partial mag when the command to fire another string could come at any second.

A competent instructor will tell the line when it is safe to recover equipment. "The line is secure, recover your equipment." Going after gear on the ground when someone is screwing with their weapon is a recipe for disaster.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

...Going after gear on the ground when someone is screwing with their weapon is a recipe for disaster.

That's the point. If no one is going to try it on a supervised line, I'm not going to play peek-a-boo with a magazine while people scream at 911 and sirens are about to fly into an unsecured scene during/after an actual shooting.

As for the instructor, I have zero doubt he would have called a cold range and had words with anyone trying to bend forward in a lull. The other students had taken several of his handgun classes so whatever reload with retention variation they were using came from him. One guy was ribbed about a dropped full magazine that implied a similar thing had been pointed out before.

[octagon]

Since this thread has appeared to devolve into “This one time on the range…” or ”This one time in competition…” story telling I guess I will tell a gunfight story and be done.

An officer I know,trained,trained with and interviewed was working one day when he responded to a shoplifter call. He and an unarmed security officer went to loss prevention,arrested the suspect and after handcuffing him behind his back searched him. They removed both his cowboy boots and afterwards put them on the arrestee. They loaded up in the transport vehicle (a SUV) and headed off to jail about 3-4 miles away. On the way the suspect said “What would you do if I had a gun” The officer, believing he was joking or asking a hypothetical question replied. I would do whatever you wanted I’m not getting killed for some shoplifting arrest” or words to that effect. The suspect said “ turn around” The officer did and saw the suspect had a derringer in his hand pointed at him leaned over still handcuffed. The suspect said to the driver to keep driving and told the officer to keep his hands up or he would kill him. The suspect directed the driver to drive to another jurisdiction “where his boys would be”. The driver continued and they drove into a neighborhood (high crime rate, rough area) The suspect directed the officer to slowly with his right hand (the officer was a lefty) draw his gun holding it with finger and thumb. He said again if the officer tried anything he would kill him. The officer complied. The suspect advised the officer to throw the gun out of the vehicle. The officer said” It is daytime and kids out are I don’t want them finding a gun. Let me kick it under a car” The suspect said ok. The driver slowed and the officer and driver jumped out of the still rolling SUV. The officer fired shots into the rear seat area as he took cover and continued to shoot as the suspect moved out of sight horizontal on the rear seat. The officer fired rounds through the tailgate,through the cage divider between cargo area and back seat and into the backseat. After the first magazine he reached slide lock and went to reload. He opened the snapped closed flat and pulled out the magazine and inserted it into the empty gun. However it wasn’t a full magazine it was his Freeze +P OC spray canister. As he realized what had happened he dropped the OC spray and loaded the fresh second magazine and continued shooting. The suspect was observed moving or parts of him so the officer believed he was still a threat. The officer continued shooting and after reaching slide lock again loaded the last magazine and paused to see if there was any sound or movement from the suspect. Nothing so he radioed the incident location in and waited behind a car for cover for the troops to arrive.

In the end the officer and unarmed security officer made it through without a scratch. The officer fired 31 rounds total. He had a solid group in the tailgate of the SUV and the suspect had 6 gunshot wounds with IIRC 2 through and through. The derringer was a .38 and both primers had been hit but neither fired. The suspect lived,was charged tried and convicted of the new offenses and the shoplifting that started it. The officer received discipline for policy violations I won’t get into. I don’t believe there was any civil suit but I can’t be certain as I interviewed him soon after the incident when a civil suit may not have happened yet. The officer was a veteran officer with at least 7-8 years on, a hunter and shooter who liked guns and shooting and never had any problems in training,drills and qualification. He said to me that he never had any issues with grabbing OC spray instead of a magazine in training including Simunitions scenarios’ His OC pouch was a leather pouch with snap on flap closer positioned right next to his double magazine pouch which also was leather with snap flap closure. He had since moved the OC location behind his radio further away from his mag pouch. I asked if I could share the mistake he made with other firearms instructors and to address the issue of pouch location,position and similarities to help others avoid the same mistake. He had no issue with it and I believe was still surprised that it happened.

What does this story tell us? I guess nothing or something depending on how each person looks at it and if they want to learn from other people’s mistakes or chalk it up to Train more,what a dummy,I would never do such a thing etc….. I leave it to each individual/expert.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

In case any of that was aimed at me, I was just saying that a class set me in my ways and erased some recent doubt. If you want more than a class, a Border Patrol firearms instructor told me that he noted baseplates sometimes shifting forward when dropping partials from the P2000. The plate would have to be reset in postiion or the mag wouldn't seat. I carry a USP compact which shares mags with the P2000 so that further keeps me from dropping my partial mags.

[Jim Watson]

After the first magazine he reached slide lock and went to reload. He opened the snapped closed flat and pulled out the magazine and inserted it into the empty gun. However it wasn’t a full magazine it was his Freeze +P OC spray

This possibility makes me wonder about those combo pouches with a magazine and a flashlight, phone, etc.

Back before ubiquitous cell phones, there were pagers not much different in size and shape to a magazine. I would not have carried one close to my ammo.

[Dagga Boy]

DB - I don't think I ever brought the gaming stuff into this thread. Other folks brought that info in, and if I misunderstood any of it I apologized.

I tried to keep the discussion on real world examples of why it was necessary to learn the tac reload. I mostly heard "you can learn it if you want to, and you should want to if you are serious". Never (not once!) has anyone presented an example of why I should learn it (or why it should be taught).

I don't care about picking up a spent mag later and leaving a nice neat crime scene. Why would I care about that? Not following. I just want to reload my gun at the right time the fastest, most reliable way I can. For me, that is what Tom Givens taught me a couple of months ago. It wasn't the Tac Reload.

What disturbed my force is discussions of "killed on the street" when it seems like you are new to most of this, combined with "Tom said". I consider Tom a friend and mentor. We don't agree on everything. Let me lay this out as basically as I can and then be done with it here, because I would rather dedicate an article to the subject.

Reloads. You have several types. From teaching perspective, the most critical to have students competent in first is Administrative loading and unloading. A purely Administrative procedure that should be treated with a high level of seriousness and often isn't. Failures in Administrwtive loading and unloading are commonly the cause of disasters and tragedies.

On the combatives side, it simple. You need techniques for loading when you have to load, need to load and want to load. Commonly, the out of battery speed re load is the solution for "have to load". The In battery speed reload for "need to load", and then a tactical load for when you want to load (of which there are several ways to accomplish and I find them mostly to be a hand size and dexterity dependent for best fit. I am agnostic on "the best way"). Why would we want to load? Often it is to prepare for a new fight. This means a fully loaded weapon that you know the status of. It is a good situation to maintain, especially if we are still in a potentially hostile environment. Remember, this reload is about control and preparation for another encounter. We are also maintaining control of one of the most critical components required to keep a semi automatic firearm functioning.

Do we teach the Tac Load in basic one day classes.? No. We also don't work at 25 yards. Because "want to load" is the least important of the loads, should we simply not have a "want to load" technique, because Tom says or it is too complicated (the truth of which Tom may have a different priority of importance based simply on different experiences). We spend a lot of time with "want to load" in a majority of our classes because we run a hot range and we have students responsible for their own Ammo management. They learn quickly that always starting at full capacity is a benefit to not getting to "have to load" at a bad time (is there ever a good time?). Again, want to completely do away with a "I want to reset for a new fight" in your training regime....awesome. Hope that works out. Carry a high capacity gun, so you don't need the ammo.....great, but I find very few folks who ALWAYS have a service pistol on them. Never ever carry a Glock 43, or Shield, good for you. None of your students or those who you teach ever carry a small single stack auto....how lucky. Never had a magazine pop a round or become inoperable when dropped on concrete or asphalt.....you need to get out more. If you only get into gunfights in places where you will never need to maybe save your critical piece of equipment that is required for semi auto function, don't worry about "want to load" and retention of magazines. I have seen some pretty crazy stuff that is not like what anyone thinks their fight is going to be. There are things I have found I want to maintain control of if I can, which include ammo and magazines if I can. If the situation does not dictate that, than one of the other types of reloads is a better fit.
Some folks can simply not handle this stuff due to lack of exposure or lack of bodily control. I know for a fact it can be trained fairly easily. If people don't want to work at that level, that is an adult choice. I prefer to work at a higher level of dedication and training, and train people who want to have a higher level of training (or are professionally mandated to). The addition and mastery of a single technique that allows me to reload when I want to is well worth it to me, and has proven to be a good thing for my students. For those contending that nobody has ever used the remaining ammo or magazines, I would contend that we also have cases of folks who have run completely out of ammunition and would have likely loved to have had some ammunition or partially loaded magazines available rather than none.

[Soggy]

What disturbed my force is discussions of "killed on the street" when it seems like you are new to most of this, combined with "Tom said". I consider Tom a friend and mentor. We don't agree on everything. Let me lay this out as basically as I can and then be done with it here, because I would rather dedicate an article to the subject.

DB: Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I really appreciate. I will read it a couple of times and ponder it.

I am definitely at "the beginner level", you are correct there. I was in the military a long time ago and have had guns and a carry permit for just as long, but eventually figured out that didn't mean anything. I wanted to get past beginner so started training, and found my way here.

I apologize to Tom for dragging his name into this. I was trying to get the point across that not everyone who advocates dumping the mag (EDIT to add: during a want to load situation) is beyond the pale. I think some of the initial comments directed towards Octagon when he raised the topic in the LEO shooting thread were in that vain, and it stifled debate. Still, probably could have handled it better.

The "killed on the streetz" comment I made was an ill timed joke. For that I apologize also.

Best Regards,

Soggy

EDIT TO ADD:

Re-reading it: I think you are misrepresenting what I was arguing. I was taught a "want to load" technique. I learned it, and I practice it. It is just a simple one.