What about triggers?

[BehindBlueI's]

What's are your guys thoughts on changing springs in revolvers to bring down the pull weight?


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Different variation on the same theme.

[willie]

One reason that I don't modify handguns that I might use for self defense is that I'm convinced that the factory of said handguns knows more than I do. I associate reliability with oem. One exception to the rule has been sights. With Glocks I learned to switch around trigger bars to find a pull that I liked better, but I'll be the first to admit that the difference in so called quality between triggers would not have mattered in a self defense shooting. With 1911's and other sa/da auto's I'm happy with a 4lb sa trigger pull, which can usually be achieved with range firing. I will not buy a revolver with a rough action or an action with hitches. Minor roughness(sign of the times)will clear up with shooting the revolver, and Flitz polish on a Q tip will fix the rest. I'm satisfied with factory springs.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If it is a good shoot, it is a good shoot...

Oh. Wow.

Yeah.

$50,000 minimum retainer for this one...

Good shoots that are good shoots are too much trouble for anything less.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Hmm, so I actually have a serious question. My Beretta with a D spring has maybe a 8lb DA trigger...I'm assuming that's fairly kosher, or is it OK until I fire it once then I have my Beretta with a 3.5-4lb SA trigger which is not OK?

Would something like a Wilson Action Tune be OK? Or a CGW done up CZ with a 6lb DA trigger? Is the question more one pertain to striker fired or SAO guns?

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Are you using equipment in good working order in such a condition that the factor would not deem your equipment risky, incorrectly modified or otherwise in a state of disrepair?

Is your equipment in factory condition or in an approved/accepted configuration such that the manufacturer or a reputable subject matter expert would deem it safe?

Modifications that bring a firearm closer to spec by removing slack in the design such as "Trigger pull should be 6 pounds - factory guns have a 5.2 to 6.7 pound trigger & contact surfaces should be polished to Z finish +/-A is acceptable...your gun has been worked on to make it 6 pounds EXACTLY and has contact surfaces with Z finish EXACTLY...", offer more control or better visual feedback so you can process the situation faster are fine. Probably.

Think about a fatal accident then explaining what mods you did to a car.

Using brake pads of a grade better than OEM? OK. Windshield with a glare resistant coating/anti-fog coating? Good...
Steering, suspension & tires upgraded so that you can stop faster, turn more exactly? NICE!

Racing tires that don't have sufficient traction for wet conditions? Oh...not good...
Cool tint that obscures your vision? Humm...
Disabling ABS because you don't like it? Er...

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Crime labs don't file charges.

Anyways,I'm going to make the radical prediction that the people who've been to court will say the same things while the people with 3lb eBay Glock triggers will argue there's no explicit case law that exactly says using a Glock with an eBay sourced trigger kit is negligent -until someone gets insulted , the F-word gets dropped,and the thread is subsequently closed.

I could be wrong.

We can't use profanity when discussing court related topics?

I'm out!

[Mitchell, Esq.]

What are these mythical "revolvers" you speak of?

I hear that once upon a time during the days of the Roman Empire people didn't use magazine fed pistols...They...

had to put the bullets in the gun manually...

[ssb]

I'm going to stay out of the civil aspect because that's way outside of my lane (and also because it's boring).

On the criminal side...

"A good shoot is a good shoot" is not the way to look at this.

Generally speaking, if I'm paying attention to details like your trigger pull it's because I don't think it's a good shoot. If I have the opportunity to pay attention to your trigger, the investigators didn't think so either -- or at least they thought there was enough grey to send it my way. In some states, you may have failed to convince a grand jury that it was a good shoot. If you're spending time and money trying to sell a jury on why your Bald Guy in Arizona Brand TerroristKiller9000 (tm) trigger was a safe and prudent modification to your self-defense firearm, you are not in "good shoot" territory.

In the other thread, Mitchell made some mention of selling boiled cats as authentic Chinese food. That's a good way to look at it. Is your (blank -- clothing, statements/social media postings, firearm modifications, training resume, etc.) going to help make that sale? Hurt it?

As to what a trigger should do:
- Be no lighter than factory spec
- Maintain all safety values
- Not be stupid light even if within factory spec

As to modifications I've made to my carry guns:

I have a lighter connector in my Glock and I have a NY1 spring. That gives me an approximately 8lb pull weight, which is heavier than factory specs.

[45dotACP]

I had a case where one store clerk shot a robber in the back of the head, near contact, while said robber was threatening another clerk at gun point. It was such a good shoot, with so many witnesses, and so much evidence, the prosecutor who came to the scene declared it a good shoot before we even asked the shooter if he wanted to give a statement. That's one end of the spectrum.

I had another case that stemmed from a domestic situation. Ex-bf comes to assassinate ex-gf. Ex-gf knows he's coming and is trying to move out, but is afraid he'll get there before she can get all of her stuff. Two "cousins" and "Dad" come to move, and set up a ambush in case he shows. He does.

There were at least three shooters on "home team" and two shooters on "visiting team". One of "home team" was a felon. One of "visiting team" was ID'd but never firmly tied to the case. While the "home team" was eventually cleared for self defense (and defense of necessity for the felon to temporarily take up a hand gun), it was a much longer and more arduous process. No uninvolved witnesses, an outside scene that was less than clear as far as who started the shooting, etc. Social media became an important one in figuring out who the primary aggressor was in that one. It was a "good shoot" eventually, but if one side starts getting painted as assholes/vigilantes/bloodthirsty morons...that colors the perception of the prosecutor deciding who's offense and who's defense. Even ignoring the civil side (which you shouldn't do, but for the sake of argument), explaining modifications and defending them as increasing not only your own safety but the safety of the community helps ease that.

I think people imagine that every shooting is like the first one. It's clear cut, it's provable, and (criminally) that's pretty much it. Few are as jacked up as the second one, but defensive shootings exist on a spectrum. Even something that starts as a good shoot can become criminal if you don't stop shooting once the suspect is no longer a threat. If you don't think your modified trigger is potentially in play if you are charged with something because your first three shots were good but the forth was excessive (in the mind of the prosecutor) than yes, they are going to use anything they can to show that last shot was willful, negligent, malicious, whatever narrative they have assigned you. You may know it was just a matter of reaction speed, you may have expert witnesses to attest to that, but you'll still have to answer that narrative.

But I thought the "rules of gunfighting" say to bring multiple friends with guns amirite?

/sarc

Literally the first thing that popped into my head reading this story.

Anyways, looks like I'm cool with my 16lb hammer spring for my 92fs. I expect the WC grips, extended mag catch and the Pepperoni rear sight are probably less of a big deal also, as there is an articulated reason I have them (to make the gun fit my hand better, to get better sight picture and to improve reload speed)

From what I gather, don't carry around the gun with the 2.0lb gray guns modded trigger that will discharge if you drop it...wink wink...nudge nudge.

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[OlongJohnson]

What's are your guys thoughts on changing springs in revolvers to bring down the pull weight?

Completely unnecessary if it's not a dedicated competition-only gun.

A basic but thorough cleanup and smoothing on my GP100 gave it probably the smoothest, butteriest DA pull I've ever felt on any handgun (which doesn't include work by someone like Bowen) and an SA that would make the owners of most 1911s a little green. No geometry changes and still all the stock springs. S&Ws are supposed to be capable of even better smoothness due to the hammer spring being completely frictionless rather than sliding on a strut. I've so far only sampled well-used and NIB Smiths, none having received competent TLC internally, so the range has been highly variable, with the best of them falling short of my Geep.

With the kinds of burrs and defects that are common on the various action parts of NIB semis and revolvers I've inspected, I am not of the opinion that just shooting or dry firing a new firearm until it gets smoother is the best approach. If there's a burr or other defect creating roughness, it's better to remove it using tools that were designed for removing burrs, than by just blindly rubbing it against the other parts of the gun until it has either worn away or created corresponding wear on an opposing surface. I'm not aware of gun parts ever having been designed for the purpose of removing burrs or other surface defects from other gun parts. (Fire lapping a barrel might be a semantic exception, but that's not what is under discussion.)

Went googling for an @Mas opinion I recall reading not too long ago where he talks about polishing versus reducing spring weights. Didn't find it, but found this post, which is oft-linked around the web and certainly worth a read. It sounds pretty much the same as the posts by P-F's attorney members in the Punisher thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/conceal...liability.html

Another collection of opinions by people presented as SMEs:

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications