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Thread: What .38spl standard pressure loads will perform reasonably well out of a 2" barrell?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    That is a totally inapplicable to this debate. Run a M-14, BAR or M2 Carbine through a similar course of fire and you too will have parts go up in flame.
    Heck, give Jerry enough moonclips and he could probably set bits on his revolver on fire.

    The thing is, you are basically here to get people to confirm your pre-existing prejudices, not learn.
    This has NOTHING to do with my original topic or any pre-existing prejudices you think I have, I was only replying to Malamute about the torture test scenario I brought up and how interesting these things are. It is NOT about revolvers vs. semi-autos.

    My original topic had already been derailed anyhow and the only thing that I got out of the whole thing is that Wadcutters are still better then any JHPs in standard pressure .38spl. out of a 2" barrel as of late 2017, and that semi-autos are better then revolvers in general.

    On the first part, I am willing to listen and try out the wadcutters. On the second part, I disagree and am sticking with my J-Frame at least for pocket carry until if and when I ever find a pocket semi-auto that I actually like and trust.

    Still, it would be interesting to know how long a quality full steel frame revolver would last before catastrophically failing if fired as fast as it possibly could. I know of no tests like this done with a revolver. Obviously, you would need a machine to keep pulling the trigger since you cannot do full auto and someone standing by to constantly open the cylinder and feed it speed loaders, an impractical and time consuming process.
    Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 09-12-2017 at 01:27 AM.
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  2. #62
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Last edited by Joe in PNG; 09-12-2017 at 12:59 AM. Reason: not helping
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    The reload issue is just short hand for what you say you value and an attempt to get you to step back and evaluate if what you say you want, what you think you want, and what you actually have overlap. And, believe it or not, even dead people often "tell" what caused them to lose...but a lot of the losers do survive. The majority, in fact.

    I'm fine with carrying a revolver, and you'll also note I never told you not to. The opposite in fact, that it will cover the vast majority of random violence. Remember this is strictly random violence, not targeted (domestic situations, disgruntled employee, ambush of uniformed LE type encounters). Vs the resource predator who wants your wallet or the rapist who wants your ass:

    1) I'm capacity agnostic. Targeted violence is different. For random encounters, people run out of time before ammo, they've won/lost/tied before the gun is dry. More is better unless you are drowning or on fire, but it's mostly for mental reasons.
    2) Reload speed is irrelevant.
    3) The shots are not particularly challenging, as the violence is close.
    4) I don't care if my gun will run 2k rounds without maintenance. I've never fired more than 2 in a for real situation. I clean and lubricate about every 500 rounds or so.

    You change the question when you ask if ammunition technology has changed since the '80s. Yes. Today we have better options than hollowbase wadcutters loaded backward, etc. But you eliminated those advancements in ammunition when you eliminated +P as an option. There's a difference in "is there better ammo" and "is there better ammo in the narrow criteria I'm allowing". Which is yet another reason I've called you several times on what you say you value vs what you actually value.

    In real short terms, you are worried about low reward criteria at the expense of high reward criteria. Then justify it as "numbers game". The good news, it probably will never matter. You're not likely to be in a gun fight, you're not likely to face a dedicated opponent, and you're not likely to have the differences in tissue destruction matter. If, however, you do, then a more damaging first shot is significantly more important than ease of reload, split times, etc. The first good hit is the single best predictor of the eventual winner of a gun fight. It's not 100%, of course, but of any single variable it's the most important (well, once the fight starts so not counting avoidance, etc.)
    OK, this is a good post. Thanks for your advice and expertise. I am not totally adverse to changing my platform. If and when I ever find a semi-auto that I like and trust for pocket carry, and I'm not saying there isn't one or more out there somewhere, just that I haven't came across one yet, but if I do I may change my mind.

    There are other reasons why I like revolvers though that have nothing to do with capacity and fast reloading. Part of it is because I'm human and just like revolvers, not because they are the best possible tool for any given moment. As you've said, if I were really truly worried about facing a serious, determined threat I would have a high-cap semi-auto. In fact, I would rather have a longgun over ANY handgun. I think any reasonable person would.

    Still, I want to have the best possible load for whichever gun or platform I decide to use and that is with all factors combined, recoil management, ease of loading, etc. and there is so much out there. It's hard to get accurate info when EVERYBODY and their uncles says the other guy doesn't know what he's talking about and their tests are bogus. It's the same thing with auto mechanics, every one of them thinks the other guy is a bad mechanic and only they know how to fix the problem.

    Whenever I bring up the topic of ammo, if I ever mention that what the police and FBI carry should be considered the gold standard, someone inevitably comes up and says: "Just because the cops carry it doesn't mean it's the best, it just means they have budget constraints and they are looking to get the best price on what's out there" and then they'll proceed to recommend some unusual, boutique brand that is better. More often then not the person that says this claims to be an LEO, or a retired LEO.

    OK, so if I'm supposed to disregard the choices in ammo the LE agencies use because they have budgets and are not necessarily looking for the best of what's out there for their troops, then why should I hold any of their ammo testing results in high regard? Why should I ignore the ammo test results of guys like Luckygunner and tnoutdoors9 on Youtube, who have done some pretty complex and stringent ammo testing I might add, just because they are not employed by a LE agency? If Luckygunner tests a new .38spl standard pressure load, the Winchester 130gr. "Train and Defend", where four out of 5 rounds has decent expansion and penetration up to 15" or more in 4 layer denim clear ballistics gel tests out of a 2" barrel then isn't that a good indication that this round might be a better choice then a wadcutter?
    Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 09-12-2017 at 02:09 AM.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
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    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid". I see you are following your own advice there, good show.
    Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 09-12-2017 at 01:23 AM.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    Are the Winchester 38 wadcutters the only acceptable ones?SG has Remingtons for $23.95/50.

    You touched on a significant difference in the shape and size between a J and the g26. Height and length may be similar, but the diagonal is much bulkier and the blocky shape compared to the tapering shape of the J make very significant differences in how they carry. As you said, carry method changes the carryability of the 26 to alleviate that, but an even larger gun like a g19 may also be about as easy, or a 3" K, or similar revolver if one likes them. The point being its hard to make measurement comparisons when theres more than heightxlength that com into play, and thats the part that really makes Js as easy to carry as they are, particularly in a pocket. Mine has been in my pocket pretty much every day for about 8 or so years, and intermittently for over 20. If I wanted to carry any bulkier gun, pocket isnt going to work. It works fine for me when in church or town clothes like jeans, shirt tucked in, or when I was working carpentry wearing T shirt and carhartt pants, and always tucked in. The next step up in size is a big change. Ive checked out the 26s, they just dont fit the same niche as a J (to me they look and feel like a brick in the pocket), unless you want to change carry method. I have a 19 for that step up for the carry methods that work for me besides pocket.
    Those Remingtons would probably be fine, if they were in stock. I check SG every couple of days, and have yet to see any full WC in stock.
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  6. #66
    Thanks for all your input. After reflecting on this for some time I've decided the solution is to abandon pocket carry as a primary means of carry during summertime as much as possible. I will make myself get used to carrying my all steel revolvers that better handle +P's and higher powered loads IWB all year round and simply just not worry about ammo performance any longer. I will change my dress in whatever way I need to in order to make it happen. I can still pocket carry my 642 Airweight as a BUG along side my primary IWB, which also solves the problem of slow reloads in the rare event I ever need to. I will look into getting some wadcutters for the 642.
    Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 09-12-2017 at 04:25 AM.
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