Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 66

Thread: What .38spl standard pressure loads will perform reasonably well out of a 2" barrell?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    As one of the few LEO's in my agency still carrying a revolver as a back up gun (BUG) I can tell you while revolvers are not obsolete, they are obsolescent. There are reasons why professional gun carriers moved on to autos. Ammunition company's development followed those contracts because that's where the money is.

    The LE agencies which still allow revolvers for BUG and off duty use, including my own almost universally mandate +P ammo. To get adequate performance in the form of 12" to 18" of penetration from standard velocity 38 you have to give up expansion for penetration just as with .380 ammo.

    There is also a reason why when revolvers were primary carry guns, it was common to carry two or three of them.

    Snub revolvers are a compromise. They still have a niche as BUG's, especially for pocket carry or where contact shots are anticipated and primary guns in low threat environments but if I have to carry a speed loader for my J frame I would just as soon carry a second J frame.
    So, another option I may have besides switching to a semi-auto, which I would rather not do, is to abandon pocket carry altogether and just get used to carrying one of my all steel frame revolvers that better handle heavier loads IWB all year round? That is something I've been seriously considering as well but reality suggests that it may not always be possible, or at least not very desirable.

    Carrying a .380acp pocket pistol is not something that I want to do. I don't like them nor do I trust them and I've yet to meet a so-called small, single stack 9mm that I felt was a true pocket pistol. Those that I've tried were either to blocky and heavy for pocket carry or they had recoil that was hardly any more manageable then a .38spl+P out of an Airweight.

    The other option albeit an expensive one, is to simply carry another lightweight J-Frame, which is easily doable in a pair of cargo shorts/pants.
    Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 09-11-2017 at 01:56 AM.
    0
     

  2. #22
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    In the desert, looking for water.
    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen View Post
    Thanks for all your replies. I've read about wadcutters and their use in J-Frames but I wasn't totally convinced that was the only answer to my problem. However, I will strongly consider carrying wadcutters in my 642 Airweight now. I will still carry the Winchester 130gr. "Train and Defend" in speedloaders or speedstrips regardless though for easy reloads. If they expand like they do in gel, that's great, if not, then they will behave similar to an FMJ, still not a bad deal.

    I also understand the odds of needing a reload as a private citizen are unlikely but I don't like to play "numbers games" with my life or the lives of those I care about so I carry and practice reloads.

    The problem with wadcutters though is they are hard to come by. I never see them stocked at any LGS in my area. I know I can always order them but I prefer to pay cash for such things whenever possible.

    What do you think of the Winchester 148gr. "Super-X Match" WC? It had an average expansion of almost 16" in gel tests and a median velocity of 710fps out of a 2" barrel.
    http://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-win...-wc-50#geltest

    Any better recommendations would be appreciated.
    That is about the performance I would expect from that load and gun. What more can we reasonably expect from it? 16" of straight track penetration, moderate recoil, and good accuracy. It doesn't expand: nothing is going to do that reliably from a 2" .38 without going to a load that recoils a *lot*. I don't like how much they cost, though.

    I have fired very few +p loads through my 642. I don't like doing it. It is uncomfortable to painful, depending on the load. I usually carry a standard pressure 125gr JHP, but am contemplating switching to a WC. I recently bought a couple hundred 130gr Ranger +p because of a good deal. I have yet to shoot any through the 642. If they are less objectionable than the +p I have used before, I will carry them and probably not worry about the wadcutters. I don't carry the 642 nearly as much as I used to - for years, it was my only CCW piece, and I still like it better than most things in its weight class.
    0
     

  3. #23
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Georgia
    I have chased the perfect snub ammo rabbit myself. One way to look at it is there are very few bullets that expand from a snub. Thankfully there is effective ammo that doesn't work by expanding. Wadcutters technology isn't fancy or new but it's proven. While there are drugs that alter mental state people are still made of all the stuff they have been made of for years where the wadcutters has worked. I look at it as there are a lot of boutique caliber and bullets for deer hunting. However my 30/30 with Remington core lokts has been killing them for years and doing the job well. It's not fancy but proven
    1
     

  4. #24
    Member TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Back in northern Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen View Post
    "With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test."

    OK, then I want to find out what those few exceptions are. I think I've found two of them, I was just asking if there were any others that I'm unaware of.
    The answer was in the reading material.

    I'm not sure about availability for the standard pressure Hornady load that was mentioned, but SGAmmo.com recently had the Winchester Ranged 130gr bonded JHP available.
    Last edited by TGS; 09-11-2017 at 07:29 AM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
    0
     

  5. #25
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Midwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen View Post
    I also understand the odds of needing a reload as a private citizen are unlikely but I don't like to play "numbers games" with my life or the lives of those I care about so I carry and practice reloads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen View Post
    So, another option I may have besides switching to a semi-auto, which I would rather not do, is to abandon pocket carry altogether and just get used to carrying one of my all steel frame revolvers that better handle heavier loads IWB all year round? That is something I've been seriously considering as well but reality suggests that it may not always be possible, or at least not very desirable.
    That's the disconnect. You either want to play the numbers game, or you want something you can pocket. You can't have everything with no compromise, and your attempts to do so are round peg/square hole type thinking. Your pocket carried ultra-light revolver is the exact opposite of not playing the numbers game. It is fine for the vast majority of random violence encounters. It is, however, not for the low probability incidents and never will be.

    There is always a trade off. Your words say you value the ability to deal with low probability incidents. Your actions say you value your idea of comfort and not having to make adjustments to carry a larger gun.
    7
     

  6. #26
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Allen, TX
    If you're committed to staying with standard pressure ammo, the WC works as well or better than anything else. Effectiveness with snubs comes down to placement much more than anything else, which is why that snub is an expert's gun, not a casual solution to being armed. It's nothing but a series of negative compromises in shootability, ammo, sights, trigger, etc. In essence, you get the worst of everything except compactness with them. I came up in police work at a time when those little guns were the off duty and plainclothes gun of choice. We didn't know what we didn't know then and got away with them because, thankfully, we didn't have to use them much on folks. While there have been quite a few astounding feats of arms with them, they are a pure suboptimal choice.

    Bottom line is, if you want expansion from a 2", you have to select a +P load and even those fail to expand frequently.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
    12
     

  7. #27
    Except when I am travelling in the backcountry (which is pretty often) I have firmly embraced the J-frame lifestyle. A J-frame is my "Town Gun."

    The epiphany I had was that the biggest issue wasn't the terminal effectiveness of the ammo I was carrying, it was my ability to rapidly deploy it and get good hits quickly.

    I've switched to 148 grain wadcutters and shoot it a lot. I do carry a speed strip full of Gold Dots as a reload, as a low percentage, nice to have kind of thing.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.
    2
     

  8. #28
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    In the desert, looking for water.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    Except when I am travelling in the backcountry (which is pretty often) I have firmly embraced the J-frame lifestyle. A J-frame is my "Town Gun."

    The epiphany I had was that the biggest issue wasn't the terminal effectiveness of the ammo I was carrying, it was my ability to rapidly deploy it and get good hits quickly.

    I've switched to 148 grain wadcutters and shoot it a lot. I do carry a speed strip full of Gold Dots as a reload, as a low percentage, nice to have kind of thing.
    I used to do that.

    My epiphany was shooting it in a couple of IDPA matches. Hard to make the hits, low capacity, s.l.o.w. reloads. And that was not shooting combat loads - that was shooting mouse farts. Compact 9mm pistols started looking pretty good.

    I've experimented with a number of potential replacements for the 642. Right now, I'm mostly using a Gadget-equipped G26. With a flush bottom 10 round magazine, it is exactly the same length and height as a Jframe wearing boot grips - but has 120% more on-board ammo, better factory sights, wide variety of easy to install aftermarket sights, is very easy to shoot fast and well, and reloads all hold at least 10 rounds, and can go to 17 without trouble carrying the spare, or 33 if you want to get crazy. It is easy to find effective, modern 9x19 without spending an arm and a leg. That Winchester WC load, for example, was going for $33/50. It is simple to find a box of Gold Dots or HSTs for less than $25/50.

    Overall thickness of the G26 is less than the 642. However, the G26 is thicker at the front and bulkier at the rear of the slide, and there are carry methods the 642 is better at: pocket and SmartCarry, for example. If I'm jogging, I'm probably carrying the 642, simply because of the weight in the smartcarry, the G26 bounces uncomfortably a bit too much, and sometimes it rides up and the back of the slide makes an awkwardly placed bulge.

    Other than that, and occasional ankle backup, I've basically sworn off carrying the 642. The G26 seems to be the new, improved jframe for me.
    Last edited by Duelist; 09-11-2017 at 11:03 AM.
    0
     

  9. #29
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen View Post
    So, another option I may have besides switching to a semi-auto, which I would rather not do, is to abandon pocket carry altogether and just get used to carrying one of my all steel frame revolvers that better handle heavier loads IWB all year round? That is something I've been seriously considering as well but reality suggests that it may not always be possible, or at least not very desirable.

    Carrying a .380acp pocket pistol is not something that I want to do. I don't like them nor do I trust them and I've yet to meet a so-called small, single stack 9mm that I felt was a true pocket pistol. Those that I've tried were either to blocky and heavy for pocket carry or they had recoil that was hardly any more manageable then a .38spl+P out of an Airweight.

    The other option albeit an expensive one, is to simply carry another lightweight J-Frame, which is easily doable in a pair of cargo shorts/pants.
    A steel J frame as a belt gun is a viable option, particulaty the 3" pro model.

    My BUG is a 340 M&P - limited +p is not going to break it. I shoot 50 rounds of our issued Gold dot 135 grain +p each quarter as mandated for qualification. Any other practice with it I shooter standard velocity 125 or 130 grain 38.

    Before the 340 I used a 642 and a 640 before that. I recently picked up a steel framed S&W 640 pro specifically as a practice gun to save wear and tear on both my carry gun and my hands.

    I'm not a .380 fan either but the if I had to carry one I would likely choose FMJ ammo to get adequate penetration - same reason I would choose wadcutters in a 38 snub if I did not want to use +p ammo.

    One factor in my own decision to stick with the J frame is I have XXL hands and find most small autos too small to shoot or manipulate effectively.
    Last edited by HCM; 09-11-2017 at 11:18 AM.
    0
     

  10. #30
    In theory, I completely agree with you. I had a long post here at P-F about this, but my search fu won't turn it up. In short, for me, the G26 is the equivalent of that girl who looks perfect on paper, but doesn't work out in reality. There is too big of a mismatch between the size of my hand and the size of my grip to run the gun aggressively. After some trial and error, I've found the perfect J-frame grip that is small enough to run out of a pocket, yet still gives me adequate control over the gun.

    Since then, there's been some single stack 9's come out with a grip size that's kind of middling between a G26 and a G19. When I have more spare time, I may try one of them out.

    I did have the realization that if you're going to carry a J-frame, you have to commit yourself to learning to running it well. Doing most of your practice with a full sized autoloader then sticking the J in your pocket when I actually carry won't cut it for me.
    Last edited by Lester Polfus; 09-11-2017 at 03:44 PM.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.
    3
     

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •