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Thread: Heeling the shot!? and general 25yd suckyness.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    Good stuff. Boy, that describes a lot of my shooting problems pretty well too - in most drills, messing up has mostly been this "visual discipline" you speak of. Just starting to learn that.

    Been doing some other reading/digging around the interwebz for info on this. I think I may still not be very good at watching my front sight lift off. I do recall today thinking/feeling I may have been eye sprinting to the target. Also was reading "my finger trying to tell my brain when the shot was broken, instead of my eyes telling my brain when the shot has broken (watching sights lift off the target)" - that seems to possibly explain what could be happening.
    Ok, so two things then. 1, do some berm drills. Just shoot bullets into the dirt and watch the sights lift. If there's no target to hit, there's no reason to eye sprint and you probably won't do it. Now, don't do it for something like 200 straight rounds, but maybe 5-10 shots here and there. If I was going to do a bunch of 25 yard B8'S and I was having issues, I'd absolutely spend 5 rounds here and there doing berm drills, just to remind my brain how to look at the sights properly.

    Another thing, try a 22. Yes, I know it's super easy to get hits with a 22 vs a centerfire, but if eye sprinting is the issue, you probably can't see .22 caliber holes at 25 yards anyway, so again, there's no incentive to try to look for them as you shoot. Maybe try 20-30 rounds of rimfire, then 10 round centerfire group.

    Finally, if eye sprinting is the issue, do not shoot reactive targets until you get it under control. Reactive targets encourage you to watch them bounce around or swing or whatever. That's bad when you're battling eye sprinting issues. I think too much time on reactive targets contributed to my own problems with this. Non falling steel is fine though, in my experience.

    ETA: RELAX!!! Some of my very worst shooting experiences have come when I tried too hard, got frustrated, tensed up and "tried harder." I always try to remind myself now that a shitty day at the range beats the heck out of going to work on a Saturday. This is my "me" time, my fun time. Turning it into frustration and drudgery is counter productive. That doesn't mean only do things you're good at, just learn to relax and enjoy the process and the journey.
    Last edited by Jared; 09-01-2017 at 08:09 PM.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter miller_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    Ok, so two things then. 1, do some berm drills. Just shoot bullets into the dirt and watch the sights lift. If there's no target to hit, there's no reason to eye sprint and you probably won't do it. Now, don't do it for something like 200 straight rounds, but maybe 5-10 shots here and there. If I was going to do a bunch of 25 yard B8'S and I was having issues, I'd absolutely spend 5 rounds here and there doing berm drills, just to remind my brain how to look at the sights properly.

    This would be very good - look forward to trying this.

    Another thing, try a 22. Yes, I know it's super easy to get hits with a 22 vs a centerfire, but if eye sprinting is the issue, you probably can't see .22 caliber holes at 25 yards anyway, so again, there's no incentive to try to look for them as you shoot. Maybe try 20-30 rounds of rimfire, then 10 round centerfire group.

    Hmm, I suck for not still having a 22 pistol. Maybe I can borrow/use one. I think this would be good for my confidence too - just to see good shots on a target @ 25 that I put there would be a big boost.

    Finally, if eye sprinting is the issue, do not shoot reactive targets until you get it under control. Reactive targets encourage you to watch them bounce around or swing or whatever. That's bad when you're battling eye sprinting issues. I think too much time on reactive targets contributed to my own problems with this. Non falling steel is fine though, in my experience.

    Yes, I've stayed away from those for awhile now. Good to know though.


    ETA: RELAX!!! Some of my very worst shooting experiences have come when I tried too hard, got frustrated, tensed up and "tried harder." I always try to remind myself now that a shitty day at the range beats the heck out of going to work on a Saturday. This is my "me" time, my fun time. Turning it into frustration and drudgery is counter productive. That doesn't mean only do things you're good at, just learn to relax and enjoy the process and the journey.


    Ya, totally suffer from that one. Yesterday, I totally expected to have much better hits at 18yd vs 25yd. When I shot the first 6 rounds and saw the hits still going above the target, I pretty much jumped right on the express train down the road to missery and frustration
    The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

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  3. #13
    Didn't read the responses...

    Things to do:

    Always find your natural point of aim at 25 y before shooting. Each time.

    If you have trouble hitting center, try a different gun with different sights. Sights are extremely important here, so finding the right way to use the sights you have needs to be debugged.

    Every change you do with anything, grip, sights, shooting position, trigger press, rep that for a week at least 30 mins a day and then see how it works your next trip.

    Try to only change one thing before a range trip, changing too much may make you confused as to how many things need to be done and in what order. Effects may vary.

    For those who are not seeing improvement or plateauing - shoot this 100 drill at 7 yards. All round should be in the x. Then the 10. Then the 15. Then 18, 21, then 25.

    You will find a distance where your groups open up really badly. That's where you should be starting from and working up.

    Conversely, if you do well at 25y, move back and keep going until you group well at 50.
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  4. #14
    Regarding frustration.....

    I'm not the best in the world at this, but here goes a little philosophy....

    We all want a positive result. Faster time, better accuracy, whatever. We love the positive result. Learn to love the process that creates that result. Learn to love establishing a good grip, and learn to love the discreet steps involved in that. Learn to love the individual steps that lead to an accurate shot. If you learn to love doing those steps correctly, then making and accurate shot is almost a foregone conclusion. Just get all the little bits right. Any drill, any skill, all of it can be broken down into little bits. And those bits can be mastered. The trick is to love the process, not just the end result, because loving the process means you'll work at it. Loving only the result leads to frustration when you don't get the result you want.

    I know it sounds either very Zen or very hokey, whichever way you choose to look at it. I forget to do it sometimes too. But I've had my very best days when I relaxed and simply enjoyed being in the range and doing the steps. Those days, those are the days I've set PR's and done things I didn't previously think I could.

    ETA: a lot of that advice there was handed to me by @Mr_White some time ago. I shouldn't have posted it without proper attribution the first go round
    Last edited by Jared; 09-02-2017 at 09:58 AM.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter P.E. Kelley's Avatar
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    Shoot groups at 3 or 5 or 7 yards first. You are not going to shoot 3" groups at 25 if ya can't shoot 1" groups at 5.

    If you get to the point that you can consistently shoot good groups then you can concern yourself where they are going.

    No one can "heel" or "push" or otherwise move the gun at the point of ignition and consistently shoot groups.

    This a trigger issue that appears to be driven by visual feedback and the desire see the hits in the center. That is a common theme.

    Dryfire is HUGH in helping this. 22's are a BIG help in breaking this issue.

    FWIW I am a Bullseye Master and the one thing helped me to win was...repeating in my head "honest trigger". That meant to never take the
    shot, just apply positive pressure to the rear in one motion and let the shot go wherever my wobble zone would let it go.
    Last edited by P.E. Kelley; 09-02-2017 at 11:50 AM.
    Guns are just machines and without you they can do no harm, nor any good

  6. #16
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    If I may join in the conversation.
    You have gotten some great info here. I particularly liked the info you received from Jared. I would expand on that if I may.
    I think you already know that you are "eye sprinting" as you call it. You are also disturbing the sight picture at the trigger press. How would only be a guess since none of us have seen you shoot. I like the berm drill or, in the case of an indoor range, the "backer" drill. (backing cardboard with no target).
    The purpose being, as Jared mentioned, to concentrate on "hard focus" of the front sight. Not just looking at it but total concentrated focus. Watching it move, watching it come back on target. Many students will say that they are looking at the front sight, but looking and focusing are two different things.
    As for trigger press, you seem to already know there might be an issue with that. Ball and dummy drills are good for detecting and helping correct the press. While correcting the press you also get to work on practicing your hard focus on the front sight.
    It would be helpful to have a competent instructor watch you, competent being the operative word here, who knows what to look for and how to convey to you how to correct what needs adjustment.
    Short of that, video yourself shooting or have someone video you while shooting so you can sit down afterward and critique your session to determine what might be happening. The video should be of only you, not you at the range with targets and all. You're not interested in what happened down range only what you are doing.
    As for the frustration. Know how that feels. If I feel frustration coming on I pack it up and go home. I've found that if I keep going while frustrated I just keep getting better at doing what it is that is frustrating me. Next range trip gets dedicated to getting the basics correct and working from there.
    Hope this helps some
    Last edited by baddean; 09-02-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post


    [/ATTACH]
    I actually worked this drill today. I was dialing in my Vortex venom on my M&P 9L and I was shooting about an Inch to 2 inches high and an inch to 2 to the right.
    someone else (who is a sniper and has better eyes than I do) shot my gun and was dead on so I decided to try this drill and lo and behold
    if my finger was not centered on the trigger I was pulling up and to the right during the squeeze.
    I slowed myself down and really focused on pulling straight back and at 35 feet I started to group consistently on the right side
    of the bullseye (I'm left handed so when I pull I tend to pull to the right) , so now I'm only about 1/2 inch off dead center height wise.

  8. #18
    And I forgot something that may help, negative targets. Take a USPSA target and cut the A zone out of it. Again there's no bullet holes to see (as long as you hit where the A zone should be) and again, no reason to look at the target for the hits. Granted, this only works if you are at a distance where you are guaranteed to hit the silhouette, because you could whiff the whole thing and not have a bullet holes same as if it passed through the missing A zone.

  9. #19
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    Did a lot of 25 yard work in Tom Given's class this past weekend. Similar takeaway as P.E. Kelley's post above. Almost entirely a matter of trigger control at this distance. Accept your wobble zone, front sight focus, don't watch your hits, take your time, nothing wrong with resting between shots. Treating as 5 one shot groups and not one 5 shot group may help. We even shot a couple of drills at closer distances with eyes closed to remind us (I think all Advanced Instructor candidates understand this intellectually but some like me still have trouble accepting it subconsciously and translating into performance) that trigger control is THE limiting factor. And yes, Gabe's advice about focusing on the process and not the result is spot on.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter P.E. Kelley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by modrecoil View Post
    Did a lot of 25 yard work in Tom Given's class this past weekend. Similar takeaway as P.E. Kelley's post above. Almost entirely a matter of trigger control at this distance. Accept your wobble zone, front sight focus, don't watch your hits, take your time, nothing wrong with resting between shots. Treating as 5 one shot groups and not one 5 shot group may help. We even shot a couple of drills at closer distances with eyes closed to remind us (I think all Advanced Instructor candidates understand this intellectually but some like me still have trouble accepting it subconsciously and translating into performance) that trigger control is THE limiting factor. And yes, Gabe's advice about focusing on the process and not the result is spot on.
    Now that you said it, I will state that in every class I hold, I shoot with my eyes closed on a drill or two. "It ain't the sights is it?"
    Guns are just machines and without you they can do no harm, nor any good

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