Heeling the shot!? and general 25yd suckyness.

[miller_man]

Hi all,

Haven't been very active with my journal due to having 2 new babies around the house, but have been getting almost regular dry practice in (though pretty limited - ~20 min/day) and getting decent amounts of live fire in - weekly or bi weekly. Have been doing ok, actually still improving on some things/drills.

But have tried getting serious again about improving on 25yd accuracy/shooting. But I am hitting a brick wall, a wall of suckyness. I have a very simple, low set goal of getting 10/10 rounds on paper (b8 repair) and a more serious goal of eventually keeping most, if not all in the black. Shooting a g34 this shouldn't be that hard.

I am getting a very consistent pattern of shooting all shots high and a tad left. This is all slow, deliberate bullseye type shooting. Taking breaks in between shots - no rushing. I have even done this drill several times and have seen very slight improvements, but mostly I just do a good press with empty gun and go back to screwing it up with the next live round. But did find that I "heel the gun"? I push down on the bottom of my palm on the lowest part of the grip, right when I break the trigger - causing the back of the gun to dip down. (its funny because I don't really see the front sight move, just the rear sight drop down)



I've tried not focusing on the trigger press, tried making a quick press like I would on a close target, tried doing a very slow press. All still equals mosly high shots. Here is some of my targets, believe this was after a few runs - some of the holes were taped up (left pic). Lately, it seems to almost be getting worse and I just left the range pretty frustrated after going to the indoor range and dumping 100 rounds at a b8 at 18yds and hitting the black maybe 10 times. (rifle range wasn't open - 25yd not available) Was severly pissed ready to throw all my pistols into the trash.

Seriously, what do I need to do? What can I do to get rid of the "heeling"?

I am not that great of a shooter but have been seeing decent improvements in most areas but I can't get this one. ANY thoughts or help would be appreciated. TIA.

[Jared]

I have had the worst problem with shooting high when I'd start to "look over" the sights (trying to see my hits) when I broke the shot. The looking over phenomenon cause me to raise the front sight and sent the miss high. Took a while to diagnose for me. I still catch myself doing it from time to time. The key for me has been to remember to look through the rear sight, not just kinda see the rear sight.

All that falls under a broader heading of what I call "visual discipline" when shooting. Believe it or not, about 80% of my own shooting problems come back to not using my eyes right, rather than something I do wrong with my hands and fingers.

[Doc_Glock]

Maybe you just need a taller front sight? Have someone you know is a good shooter try it.

What sights and sight picture are you using?

[miller_man]

All that falls under a broader heading of what I call "visual discipline" when shooting. Believe it or not, about 80% of my own shooting problems come back to not using my eyes right, rather than something I do wrong with my hands and fingers.

Good stuff. Boy, that describes a lot of my shooting problems pretty well too - in most drills, messing up has mostly been this "visual discipline" you speak of. Just starting to learn that.

Been doing some other reading/digging around the interwebz for info on this. I think I may still not be very good at watching my front sight lift off. I do recall today thinking/feeling I may have been eye sprinting to the target. Also was reading "my finger trying to tell my brain when the shot was broken, instead of my eyes telling my brain when the shot has broken (watching sights lift off the target)" - that seems to possibly explain what could be happening.

[Clusterfrack]

You can debug this. Your first goal should be consistency, precision, a small group. The placement of the group is secondary.


Here are a few suggestions:

I do not recommend taking breaks between shots. Shoot all 10 rounds without changing anything. Don't look at the target between shots, adjust your grip, etc. This causes inconsistent shooting, and makes it hard to know what caused the group you shot.

Dryfire to work on your trigger press. Make sure you aren't causing the sights to move as you press the trigger.

Explore the effect of grip and stance on your groups. A very relaxed grip and stance can cause shots to hit high, especially in light plastic guns. Try gripping more strongly with your support hand, and add more "forward intention" to your stance. Note: shoot 10 rounds every time you change something.

Focus on the corners of the front sight, and confirm that you are aligned in the notch. Lighting can have a major effect on how the notch appears--especially for folks with aging eyes. I've observed my groups shift because of the direction of the sun.

Work on observing the sights as the shot happens, and note anything that didn't look like a good shot. Try to see where front sight was when it jumped from the shot firing. When you learn to call your shots, you'll be on a solid path to improve your shooting.

(The drill in the video seems ok to me, but there's nothing wrong with a "flinch" as long as it happens after the shot fires. When you see M/GM shooters have a misfire during a match, there's almost always a post-ignition push that looks like a flinch. It's only a problem if it happens before the shot is fired.)

[miller_man]

Maybe you just need a taller front sight? Have someone you know is a good shooter try it.

What sights and sight picture are you using?

This is same with 2 34's. No, haven't gotten another shooter to try it - maybe need to do that. 1st one was setup with cheap glock plastic front sight, painted flat black and ameriglo .150 black rears (defoors). I thought I liked the little bit wider front sight with less light bars. Was using a 6 o'clock hold - cutting the target in half with front sight. Have been using this for a while and have pulled off some decent shots at 25yd with it. First pic is 20yd, second is 25yd - minus the low shot and fliers to right, looks pretty decent to me. This was earlier this year back in April I believe - when I was getting excited that I could be figuring it out.



Just installed dawson chargers last week though - pretty sure they would be spot on. Shot this at 25 first time in live fire with em (sorry sideways pics). Shot 5 for group, then paste and shot 2nd group. Seemed pretty good, and consistent with what I've been shooting. Really like the smaller fs and tighter rear sight/sight picture. 2nd 34 is set up with some standard tru glo night sights for now, shoot pretty much the same with them too.

[Doc_Glock]

I am not an expert. First you need to get your group size down to 5" or less for ten. Once you are grouping nicely, then use the sights to move it where you want it.

Chargers are great sights but sometimes they need a front sight swap to dial in your particular gun and ammo.

[Doc_Glock]

This is a bible of bullseye I have been reading.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm

[miller_man]

Really good stuff - please keep it coming!

Ok, good - first priority is a good, small group - 5". I have actually seen decent groups for a few shots, just not where I wanted them so I just discounted them.

[miller_man]

You can debug this. Your first goal should be consistency, precision, a small group. The placement of the group is secondary.

I really needed to hear/read that!

Here are a few suggestions:

I do not recommend taking breaks between shots. Shoot all 10 rounds without changing anything. Don't look at the target between shots, adjust your grip, etc. This causes inconsistent shooting, and makes it hard to know what caused the group you shot.

That makes good sense.

Dryfire to work on your trigger press. Make sure you aren't causing the sights to move as you press the trigger.

Explore the effect of grip and stance on your groups. A very relaxed grip and stance can cause shots to hit high, especially in light plastic guns. Try gripping more strongly with your support hand, and add more "forward intention" to your stance. Note: shoot 10 rounds every time you change something.

Now reading that - I do think I have a relaxed, pretty sure leaning more back stance - almost like I'm somewhat timid with my posture at the 25yd line.

Focus on the corners of the front sight, and confirm that you are aligned in the notch. Lighting can have a major effect on how the notch appears--especially for folks with aging eyes. I've observed my groups shift because of the direction of the sun.

Definitely shooting in different times of day/sun/cloudy etc.. This is also why I felt the wider front sight helped - I had a wider top of the front sight to line up with the top of the rear sight. So far, I still think the smaller dawsons are better though.

Work on observing the sights as the shot happens, and note anything that didn't look like a good shot. Try to see where front sight was when it jumped from the shot firing. When you learn to call your shots, you'll be on a solid path to improve your shooting.

Have really been trying to fully grasp this, still learning how I think. Really think this is a big key I am missing right now. But have been able to tell more and more when I throw a bad one. I have noticed seeing the flash of the bang a few times and was really suprised by seeing this - first time for it, good thing?

(The drill in the video seems ok to me, but there's nothing wrong with a "flinch" as long as it happens after the shot fires. When you see M/GM shooters have a misfire during a match, there's almost always a post-ignition push that looks like a flinch. It's only a problem if it happens before the shot is fired.)

Yes, was reading this on Brian Enos forum earlier. I have definitely witnessed myself with a dramatic, pre push.