Punisher Skull on a Self Defense Firearm

[MistWolf]

Please, no "what ifs" and no speculation. Please cite from documented cases or first hand experience

[Hambo]

Please, no "what ifs" and no speculation. Please cite from documented cases or first hand experience

If you want actual cases I doubt you're going to find much of anything. It's not a huge slice of the gun owning public that puts shit on their guns, and it's a smaller subset that has been in shooting using one of those guns.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. It is not a good shoot if you go to trial. The issue is in question. So the good shoot meme is stupid. If you don't get charged, it may be a good shoot. If you are on trial it is not. Then you need to worry what happens in your ambiguous situation.

2. The Jury will decide if it is a good shoot.

3. There is compelling evidence that appearance issues influence juries. Has there been a specific trial on that logo? Who knows. Looking for a case on that is not the issue as your case will be unique and you don't know if a jury decided to ignore an appearance issue they will ignore in yours.

4. The decision is not made on the sole basis of the logo, gun type, etc. The jury decision is a composite of many factors. Thus, asking if an appearance issue is the sole determinant is to misunderstand decision making.

5. The best model of jury decision making is that the jury looks for a coherent story that makes sense to them. What makes sense depends on presentation and the information that they regard as relevant. Appearance issues can be potent as seen in real world cases and in simulation research.

There was a case on CourtTV when it existed. An officer shoots a mentally challenged individual with a rake. It is ambiguous. He goes to trial. At the time of the shooting, his picture is one with sidewall haircut and a glowering tough guy pose. At trial, he is wearing a three piece suit. His hair has grown out and stylish. He wears half reading classes when looking at exhibits. Why?

To be blunt, I don't give a flying mating dance if you ignore such with the 'good shoot' or 'show me a case' BS - as that means you don't understand the issue. Being a competitor has come up in trials, training as come up in trials, statements quoting your instructors saying "Have plan to kill everyone" has come up in trials. Prosecutors make a point of displaying the weapon in exquisite detail to prime negative attitudes. Then simulations have shown that influences some folks.

I wouldn't want to have an immature logo to be even a small portion of the variance in a trial. Remember if you ask if it is the sole factor, you don't understand the process models either.

[Lester Polfus]

For some reason I just couldn't resist:

If you don't put the Punisher skull on your gun, you don't have to worry about it.

There. I did it. Next time I get the urge to post in a topic about 1) Punisher Skulls on guns 2) 5.11 pants/vests or 3) 9mmvs40vs.45vs356TSW, I'm just going to slam my hand in a car door until the urge passes.

[breakingtime91]

Please, no "what ifs" and no speculation. Please cite from documented cases or first hand experience

We had a directive come down in 2010 that said any offensive writing, patches, or markings on rifles could negatively impact us at trial if we had a shooting that was questioned.

This was from our head legal guy and for us being in Afghanistan. So yea, I think it could get you in a pinch in the states. I took it to heart and would point it out to others. YMMV

[voodoo_man]

1. It is not a good shoot if you go to trial. The issue is in question. So the good shoot meme is stupid. If you don't get charged, it may be a good shoot. If you are on trial it is not. Then you need to worry what happens in your ambiguous situation.

2. The Jury will decide if it is a good shoot.

3. There is compelling evidence that appearance issues influence juries. Has there been a specific trial on that logo? Who knows. Looking for a case on that is not the issue as your case will be unique and you don't know if a jury decided to ignore an appearance issue they will ignore in yours.

4. The decision is not made on the sole basis of the logo, gun type, etc. The jury decision is a composite of many factors. Thus, asking if an appearance issue is the sole determinant is to misunderstand decision making.

5. The best model of jury decision making is that the jury looks for a coherent story that makes sense to them. What makes sense depends on presentation and the information that they regard as relevant. Appearance issues can be potent as seen in real world cases and in simulation research.

There was a case on CourtTV when it existed. An officer shoots a mentally challenged individual with a rake. It is ambiguous. He goes to trial. At the time of the shooting, his picture is one with sidewall haircut and a glowering tough guy pose. At trial, he is wearing a three piece suit. His hair has grown out and stylish. He wears half reading classes when looking at exhibits. Why?

To be blunt, I don't give a flying mating dance if you ignore such with the 'good shoot' or 'show me a case' BS - as that means you don't understand the issue. Being a competitor has come up in trials, training as come up in trials, statements quoting your instructors saying "Have plan to kill everyone" has come up in trials. Prosecutors make a point of displaying the weapon in exquisite detail to prime negative attitudes. Then simulations have shown that influences some folks.

I wouldn't want to have an immature logo to be even a small portion of the variance in a trial. Remember if you ask if it is the sole factor, you don't understand the process models either.

Clearly in response to my post so I will respond.

1. A good shoot can and often times will go to trial because of shitty DA's. Why are the vast majority of LE trials non-convictions? Just a DA being a d-bag trying to look "tough on cops" when they are afraid to make a decision to not prosecute - hundreds of cases to back this up.

2. If it's a jury trial. Locally we opt for bench trials and win nearly 99% of the time an officer charged through the bullshit of a DA, see above.

3. Every deadly force case is unique, water is wet.

4. Direct contradiction of your points, it either matters and is unique or it does not. Cannot be both.

5. ...which is why guys like Massad Ayoob, and others make lots of dollars explaining concepts to jurors, and proving what a good shoot is to those who may otherwise react emotionally(knee jerk). Again, if it's even a jury trial.

Have you actually sat through a homicide or OIS trial? Vastly different and I can understand you saying what you're saying, experience it for yourself, if by just sitting in the court room watching, huge eye opener.

Of course being a competitor will come up. Of course any martial art will come in court. Of course any of your FB posts or social media posts will come up in court. Of course they will, to think they won't is shortsighted and no one has said any of it won't. But will the fact you have a TiN barrel over a stock barrel matter? How about an SCD on your gun rather than a standard backplate will that matter? If you say yes, show me the case to support it. Very likely someone, somewhere has shot someone with a modified firearm and there would likely be some sort of record of what happened somewhere. Fact is we don't see that on the forums. Why is that? Furthermore, taking classes from instructors who are willing to come to court and stand their instruction up is important.

If you put a swastika on the side of your gun and shoot a black guy or Jew, guess what, you'll have a really bad day. If you put some Arabic script that happens to be something about greatness and you shoot some "infidels" you'll have a really bad day, probably in the same cell as the Nazi guy.

If you modify your gun with random parts that otherwise don't make you more likely to ND, you will be perfectly fine if it's a good shoot. If it's a good shoot.. If it's a bad shoot it doesn't really matter what's on your gun. If it's a good shoot then the only way it becomes a bad shoot is if the investigators can prove malicious intent of some kind. This is why you don't post Nazi shit on FB or whatnot. If you're into that type of thing, and if you are please go pound sand elsewhere.

Again, prove me wrong, show me the cases.

[txdpd]

As far as cases not going to trial, double jeopardy doesn't apply to grand juries or DA decisions to not prosecute. If it's within the statute of limitations, and it hasn't been to trial it's fair game. Different day different DA can make a huge difference. I was involved in a suicide by cop and that was no billed, many years later I found out that I had been no billed a second time after the DA took it, along with several other OIS's, to another grand jury to try to indict cops.

I don't want to go through a trial, but not getting charged doesn't mean all that much either.

[GardoneVT]

Again, prove me wrong, show me the cases.

Why? This is America. Decorate your carry gun however you please. Just know that freedom of choice also means accepting the results of that choice,for good or bad.

[Peally]

FWIW, the OP has asked, twice now, that people cite relevant documented cases or first hand experience (which probably means this should/would be a pretty short and boring thread).

Vague question (a booger in your nose could tweak someone's judgement for god's sake) + extremely specific and unusual request for answers = no replies

[voodoo_man]

Why? This is America. Decorate your carry gun however you please. Just know that freedom of choice also means accepting the results of that choice,for good or bad.

I mean, that's my point without actually saying it.

Deadly force is deadly force, gun, knife, rock, hammer, hotdog, car or shallow puddle of it's a good deadly force use the method of force doesn't matter nor does the instrument.

People are quick to throw out non-truths they hypothesize in their heads without actually having the evidence to back it up. Especially true in the deadly shoot criminal justice arena, when done by people who don't frequent it. This means precedent and case law either exist or they do not. If they do, show me. If they do not show me why these cases weren't appealed, opinions are fine but post the cases. That's all. Otherwise it's just conjecture.