MRDS white paper by Sage Dynamics

[Tom Duffy]

Between RMR, dovetail mount, .45 acp, short sight radius and heavy trigger on the HK45C, I can't imagine a less competitive set-up. Any special reason you decided to go that way?

Nothing special about Carry Optics, except it is a chance to see a bunch of people try to work a dot under some stress, shooting in unusual positions, all on a clock.

Yeah, it took me less than one outing to realize how uncompetitive my setup is. In center fire, Steel Challenge has become exclusively 9mm with a lot of heavy 1911s. Short answer it that I don't own many guns and this one was an available test bed, for which I have a lot of ammo. Short of Steel Challenge, my range does not allow rapid fire or use of a holster. So now I'm getting a couple hundred rounds of LEM practice in a week and trying to improve my times week to week. Fortunately, at my age, I'm not competitive anyway.

Back to my point, the study does a good job of looking at the efficacy of red dots as compared to iron sights for law enforcement use but offers only a binary choice of aiming devices, neither of which is optimal. Given that most cops qualify only once or twice a year, often draw their guns at night or in inclement weather, and usually engage at short range, they would be better served with a green laser.

[octagon]

Yeah, it took me less than one outing to realize how uncompetitive my setup is. In center fire, Steel Challenge has become exclusively 9mm with a lot of heavy 1911s. Short answer it that I don't own many guns and this one was an available test bed, for which I have a lot of ammo. Short of Steel Challenge, my range does not allow rapid fire or use of a holster. So now I'm getting a couple hundred rounds of LEM practice in a week and trying to improve my times week to week. Fortunately, at my age, I'm not competitive anyway.

Back to my point, the study does a good job of looking at the efficacy of red dots as compared to iron sights for law enforcement use but offers only a binary choice of aiming devices, neither of which is optimal. Given that most cops qualify only once or twice a year, often draw their guns at night or in inclement weather, and usually engage at short range, they would be better served with a green laser.

Can you elaborate on your conclusion that LEOs would be better served with a green laser? Are you basing that on your experience, a study(s) or something else? I mentioned the use of laser and a couple other points I thought were not addressed in the MRDS white paper here and I emailed Aaron about them. I mentioned it before in this thread but reiterate it again that every choice has positives and negatives and the end user or agency in some LEOs cases must decide. The laser is one that has some trade offs and benefits.

[GJM]

A green laser, in conjunction with either iron sights or a red dot seems to offer a number of advantages. It is a alternate sighting system, unlike BUIS through a dot that can be obscured by problems with the display. If green, there is no confusion as to which dot is what system. It allows target focus with either eye, possibly without corrective lenses, and is intuitive to learn. It also lends itself to shooting on the move, especially in dim light.

On the negative side with the laser, the ergonomics and durability of many of the choices are problematic, it limits holster choices, and there can be significant offset considerations.

The green laser, like red dots for pistols, is an area where I hope the technology improves soon.

[DocGKR]

There is nothing wrong with running a pistol with BIS, an RDS, and a green laser....

[Tom Duffy]

Can you elaborate on your conclusion that LEOs would be better served with a green laser? Are you basing that on your experience, a study(s) or something else? I mentioned the use of laser and a couple other points I thought were not addressed in the MRDS white paper here and I emailed Aaron about them. I mentioned it before in this thread but reiterate it again that every choice has positives and negatives and the end user or agency in some LEOs cases must decide. The laser is one that has some trade offs and benefits.

I think GJM provided an excellent answer concerning the pros associated with a green laser.
There was a thread on the forum about a year ago mentioning a study comparing shooting performance of red dot vs. iron sights vs. laser. The laser did very well. I did a search to find the thread but couldn't. Sorry.

I just updated my profile so you can see that my experience is unfortunately fairly minimal.

My opinion vis-à-vis LEOs and lasers is only based on observation and my own quest to find what works for me.
If I were outfitting a service gun I would do it in the following order of priority:
1. Night sights with a large dot on the front sight (I like the Trijicon HD)
2. A green laser from Crimson Trace. (their newest iteration without the external battery compartment seem very reliable.)
3. A co-witnessed red dot (only if you've done the first two.)

Most cops don't practice very often. The majority aren't really into guns. Of that group, some will go to a range a day or two before their yearly qualification and shoot a box of 50 rounds for familiarity before the qualification. Most won't. Many get stressed before qualification even though they can shoot the qualification as many times as needed to pass. Shooting a gun *really well* is not a skill a cop needs on a daily basis and usually never. People skills, de-escalation techniques and note taking are. There are departments that do not allow their officers to practice with their duty weapon unless they are at the police range.

Given this state of affairs, putting a red dot on a gun is preaching heaven to earth. Red dots require lots of practice. Drawing your gun with the laser turning on as you grip the gun and putting the laser on the target seems a lot more instinctive.

[octagon]

A green laser, in conjunction with either iron sights or a red dot seems to offer a number of advantages. It is a alternate sighting system, unlike BUIS through a dot that can be obscured by problems with the display. If green, there is no confusion as to which dot is what system. It allows target focus with either eye, possibly without corrective lenses, and is intuitive to learn. It also lends itself to shooting on the move, especially in dim light.

On the negative side with the laser, the ergonomics and durability of many of the choices are problematic, it limits holster choices, and there can be significant offset considerations.

The green laser, like red dots for pistols, is an area where I hope the technology improves soon.

Just to be clear I am not pro laser or against it nor Pro MRDS or against them either I am just attempting to get a better understanding of a persons(Tom Duffy) stance on laser use and why he came to the conclusion that he did.

You covered some pros and cons of laser use but missed issues with use in smoke/fog/dust, the visibility of laser and targeting ability by threats due to it's visibility and parallax considerations when targeting through glass. Laser also consume power at a higher rate than MRDS as well as have an activation consideration that must be trained for.

Again this is not an attack or support for lasers,MRDS or other systems it is search for why one would select one over another or choosing any of them or excluding any.

[octagon]

I think GJM provided an excellent answer concerning the pros associated with a green laser.
There was a thread on the forum about a year ago mentioning a study comparing shooting performance of red dot vs. iron sights vs. laser. The laser did very well. I did a search to find the thread but couldn't. Sorry.

I just updated my profile so you can see that my experience is unfortunately fairly minimal.

My opinion vis-à-vis LEOs and lasers is only based on observation and my own quest to find what works for me.
If I were outfitting a service gun I would do it in the following order of priority:
1. Night sights with a large dot on the front sight (I like the Trijicon HD)
2. A green laser from Crimson Trace. (their newest iteration without the external battery compartment seem very reliable.)
3. A co-witnessed red dot (only if you've done the first two.)

Most cops don't practice very often. The majority aren't really into guns. Of that group, some will go to a range a day or two before their yearly qualification and shoot a box of 50 rounds for familiarity before the qualification. Most won't. Many get stressed before qualification even though they can shoot the qualification as many times as needed to pass. Shooting a gun *really well* is not a skill a cop needs on a daily basis and usually never. People skills, de-escalation techniques and note taking are. There are departments that do not allow their officers to practice with their duty weapon unless they are at the police range.

Given this state of affairs, putting a red dot on a gun is preaching heaven to earth. Red dots require lots of practice. Drawing your gun with the laser turning on as you grip the gun and putting the laser on the target seems a lot more instinctive.

Thanks for clarifying. Can you remember the laser study or any details so I can check it out or was it just a discussion and study done here on PF? That way I know where to look.

I totally agree with many of your points on LEO training/practice or lack thereof. I spent 17 years as a Firearms instructor and Rangemaster so I get it. This is why I always keep an open mind regarding technologies like MRDS and laser,WML etc that may be able to aid in performance. There is a cost and value associated that LEOs and agencies have to weigh so it is important to consider each along with their pros and cons.

[GJM]

I am not familiar with LE laser practices -- is there any pistol laser besides the X400 that has been vetted to stand up to the rigors of daily use over an extended period, with many users, in a range of weather conditions?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Mark at L&M would be my number 1,
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hands down. Mark milled my M&P. I also have two Unity slides. I prefer that route because it allows one to change optics in terms of an upgrade or new, improved rather than having to buy another slide and go through that whole roll. Somewhere out there is a slide of mine that just disappeared during that whole process.

Unfortunately, Unity has only pushed out their set-up with Glocks. That's in spite of DocGKR having proofed the M&P version.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I am not familiar with LE laser practices -- is there any pistol laser besides the X400 that has been vetted to stand up to the rigors of daily use over an extended period, with many users, in a range of weather conditions?

I "think" we'd have to reach out to @SoCalDep ... my recollection is his agency did some extensive work with pistol mounted lasers when they replaced their duty pistols.