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Thread: Shoulder stocked pistol, how are they classified?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    Hadnt thought of M4C.
    They have a pretty good sub forum.

    Tony K. is a pretty sharp moderator on NFA items (and has been for over a decade) over on ar15.com's Armory subsection. Renegade used to be moderator in the NFA section before some internet drama that I don't know about or care to bring back to the surface he was banned from the AR15.com site.

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/17_Ge...Questions.html

    I might ask in the above.

    Nfatalk.org is also a good site, Plunky runs a pretty good forum (been a member there for a few years).

    Silencertalk.com is also a good site for NFA information; I was very active there for years before here.

    The first quote of yours above is a factual statement. I would say the meaning is clear. The second quote is an anecdotal statement that is not fully defined as to the circumstance, but I took to mean that since they do it, it must be ok. I don't think either are right, but I'm not an NFA lawyer or BATFE official. I'm just some dude who was an avid reader of the NFA section of M4carbine when I was going through the process, but not so much now. Do you know what the law is? If not, I think your statements are reckless and contribute to the misunderstanding and confusion regarding a complex set of laws and rulings. I don't know, so I gave conservative advice and warnings that were meant to wave people off of committing what I suspect to be a felony. If I really wanted to know, I would ask on M4carbine and see what people like Renegade and scotryan say, or ask an NFA lawyer. The BATFE has a bad habit of giving different answers depending on who is asked, and individual agents may/probably don't know the past rulings/interpretations.
    So, to clear it up. The only weapon that is always that has an NFA classification is MG's; even if you remove the auto sear from a registered MG receiver. If it's paperworked as a MG; it's a MG. Barrel length does not matter. If it's a side plate for an M2 or an RDIAS; it's an MG.

    SBR's rely on condition of the weapon. Which is why about I don't know 4-5 years ago when BCM started selling SBR Lowers through G&R Tactical registered as SBR's; the ATF put a stop to that because the weapons had to be registered with a barrel length and the barrels were not present on the weapons thus nullifying the need for the registration.

    Which kind of drives back to my point earlier in the thread about the condition of the weapon being the issue.

    If you register an AR-15 as an SBR and place it in a configuration that no longer adheres to the requirements of being an SBR; the ATF no longer considers it an SBR.

    Now, there is the of once a rifle always a rifle. But, here's a good .PDF from the ATF that applies to Pistols and weapons that were original designed and intended to be pistols being converted to rifles and parts.

    But in this .PDF from the ATF (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download).

    As I read it The ATF indicates what I'm saying is correct in this statement on Thompson Contender's configuration being changed and going to the Supreme Court.

    It is important to remember that Pistols are not regulated or considered firearms under the NFA which is true, but there are other provisions indicated that a pistol is indeed a firearm just the NFA deals with SBR's, SBS', MG's, AOW's, and DD's.

    Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm
    regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by
    26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled
    in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a
    barrel of 16 inches or more in length)
    .
    Specifically, the underlined part. It's not subject to NFA when it's returned to it's not NFA configuration.

    Now, I would go to other sources such as NFATalk, silencertalk the NFA General FAQ under AR15.com, or the NFA forum in M4carbine.net. I've been to all of those areas and participated there for years.

    But, to me. If you wanted to CYB, I'd check with the ATF. If you really want to Cover your Butt, write a letter and get a letter back.

    Now Toonces, I may speak in generalities or waffle a bit in my statements, but I'm not new to NFA items.

    Thanks and God Bless,

    Brandon

  2. #22
    STAFF Tom_Jones's Avatar
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    As a reminder, this isn't General Discussion. I'd prefer that we not post speculation about legal matters in a technical forum. If you don't know the answer to the OP's question (and can back it up with relevant links), it's preferable to not post anything than to post "I could be wrong...", "my understanding is...", "i think/don't think...", etc. Posting specualtion doesn't help anyone.

    If you guys wish to discuss you opinions, by all means do so -- just do it in General Discussion.

  3. #23
    Member Johnny's Avatar
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    SCOTUS ruled on it, ATF wrote a nice little story about it..

    It seems to be "common knowledge" among "AR people" that once a rifle always a rifle but if a receiver having never been a rifle and is first built as a pistol it can go back and forth as much as you like so long as said receiver is not configured with the short barrel and the stock at the same time.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download

  4. #24
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    SCOTUS ruled on it, ATF wrote a nice little story about it..

    It seems to be "common knowledge" among "AR people" that once a rifle always a rifle but if a receiver having never been a rifle and is first built as a pistol it can go back and forth as much as you like so long as said receiver is not configured with the short barrel and the stock at the same time.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download

    Yes, that is my understanding of the aspect of pistol to rifle, and back again if desired, but it still doesnt answer my original question. Does an NFA firearm (handgun with shoulder stock added) become "unrestricted" so to speak on where I can take, such as a state that doesnt allow short barreled rifles, it if the part making it NFA regulated (shoulder stock) is not present?
    Last edited by Malamute; 08-19-2017 at 07:22 PM.

  5. #25
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    BWT, I apologize for coming off as an ass. I re-read what I wrote. If we had been standing face to face, the in person conversation would not have made you want to punch me in the head. I hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    Specifically, the underlined part. It's not subject to NFA when it's returned to it's not NFA configuration.
    The sentences before the underlined part specifically say if no NFA item was made. This is about a registered SBR. It doesn't look like that applies.

    Im tent camping. My iPad died. My phone is low. Have a good evening.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonces View Post
    BWT, I apologize for coming off as an ass. I re-read what I wrote. If we had been standing face to face, the in person conversation would not have made you want to punch me in the head. I hope.



    The sentences before the underlined part specifically say if no NFA item was made. This is about a registered SBR. It doesn't look like that applies.

    Im tent camping. My iPad died. My phone is low. Have a good evening.
    I forgive you. I'll be honest, my wife and I were out hiking at Triple Falls in our area and it was gorgeous. I put my phone in airplane mode. I checked it after going to the restroom on our way back and my wife was asking me why I looked so frustrated.

    It's not worth flipping out or ruining an afternoon; this really is internet debate. It's really not worth time away form our families or impacting our relationships. I appreciate you saying something and honestly, I really respect you for doing so. If we lived closer; I'd think we'd need to get together sometime and go shooting, etc.

    The sentences before the underlined part specifically say if no NFA item was made. This is about a registered SBR. It doesn't look like that applies.
    So, let me break the paragraph and sentences in it a bit more. Before doing that, you referred to the sentence before this paragraph.

    Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.
    This is in regards to a rifle being put in a configuration with a barrel length greater than an SBR; makes the weapon not subject to NFA and therefore not subject to the From 5320.20 to cross state lines.

    Let's get down to business on this part of the thread. My comments will be in italics and parentheses.

    Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts (A handgun would be a perfect example - BWT) is not used to make a firearm
    regulated under the NFA (emphasis *UNDER THE NFA* - BWT) (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by
    26 U.S.C. 5845(e) (pistols as I said in my previous post are *NOT* weapons subject to the NFA -BWT)), no NFA firearm (a pistol is *NOT* an NFA firearm - BWT) is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled
    in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a
    barrel of 16 inches or more in length) (It specifically uses a pistol as an example; it also says pistols are not regulated under the NFA - BWT).
    Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle
    does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown
    condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same
    weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA
    has been made.
    A Form 1 is literally a is sometimes referred to as a "weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, etc." On the form 1 it literally is an application to make a weapon (https://www.atf.gov/file/11281/download).

    When a "weapon made from a pistol/rifle/shotgun" reconfigured as a pistol/rifle/shotgun (in this example and the example in the Supreme Court case back in 1992); is no longer subject to the NFA when it no longer fits the dimensions that are regulated.

    Further in the .PDF it states

    (b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including –
    (1) A pistol and (This means don't bring your shoulder stock with you when it's in pistol configuration - BWT) attachable shoulder stock; and
    - 4 -
    (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel
    of less than 16 inches in length.
    Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
    I hope this helps. From everything I've ever read and understood in regards to Short Barreled Rifles, and it's clear to me in this document from the ATF that if it's not in configuration and the parts aren't physically present with the weapon (ETA: to restore the weapon to it's NFA configuration); it is no longer purview to the NFA.

    Now, crossing state lines; as I understand it the weapon is no longer federally regulated out of that registered configuration or the components are present to readily restore that weapon to it's registered condition (when an SBR/SBS).

    You'll still be subject to all local/state legalities but as long as that pistol is not configured as an SBR; you would not be subject to the NFA and thus a Form 5320.20 would not need to be filed/approved before crossing state lines.

    I hope this helps and I'm glad to be able to put our dispute aside Toonces. Man, you and I have had it out over this week, no?

    God Bless,

    Brandon

    ETA: At this point, if you have any further concerns; I'd contact someone like Joshua Prince (Lawyer) or others and I can recommend those via PM. I apologize to Tom and any others if I did any of this incorrectly/disobeyed directions, etc.
    Last edited by BWT; 08-20-2017 at 04:05 PM.

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