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Thread: Reputable (Mil-Spec Or Better) Manufacturer vs. Home Build AR-15

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    ETA 4: I was walking around at work (lunch break now) and thinking about Toonces' reply and to me a phrase this forum uses a lot is the Dunning Kruger effect. The thoughts being people have an inaccurate idea of their proficiency; I believe that's the case with a lot of men mechanically. That effect in this forum is usually with regards to that ability to operate a firearm. So, for that reason; I'm reluctant to compare DIY'ers because I think we have a similar effect with assembly of guns if we're being honest with ourselves.

    I think to Toonce's credit people have to take a step back and make a realistic appraisal of their own mechanical capabilities before indicating they can make the same product or better.
    Hey! I resemble that remark...

    I've been on both sides of Dunning-Kruger. But in this instance I'll bank on my engineering and job experience and claim to be on the right side.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Probably most important post in the thread.

    Everyone thinks that their "flawless" build is because they have some personal friendship with Yoda, studied all the right internet threads, bought the best of the best of the best, adjusted all their minutiae, and came out with the gold standard of ARs. The problem is, there's not really any way of knowing if that all happened for those reasons, or simply due to stupid dumb luck.

    One of the reasons I default back to factory guns now days is that there's someone to send the gun back to. Yeah, it sucks, but I'd rather box it up and send it back than get all fiddle-fuck down int he basement trying to figure out what I did wrong.

    God bless the folks that enjoy all the fiddle-fuck, but that's not what interests me in guns (or really anything) these days. I'd rather be shooting than tinkering, and if I can't be shooting there's about 500 other things I'd rather be doing than tinkering.
    I loved Lego's as a kid. Not much has changed.

    The carbine I built is a mid-length version of a Colt 6720. The main parts are a DD barrel, Colt upper receiver and LPK, and BCM for the fixed front sight and BCG. I don't think it's "stupid dumb luck" that it runs.

    That being said, I bought my last upper from BCM. It was easy, and cheaper than the parts.

  2. #42
    Building ARs is fun. Building ARs is technical. This is a tech forum. Let's try and keep it technical, this is a reminder, not an admonishment.
    #RESIST

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Building ARs is fun. Building ARs is technical. This is a tech forum. Let's try and keep it technical, this is a reminder, not an admonishment.
    Exactly..

    You follow all of the correct procedures with correct material and correct torque values and verifying clearances and using correct thread compounds where called for...you're going to have a good rifle.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
    Exactly..

    You follow all of the correct procedures with correct material and correct torque values and verifying clearances and using correct thread compounds where called for...you're going to have a good rifle.
    So long as one is capable of doing that.

    I know I'm not.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondering Beard View Post
    So long as one is capable of doing that.

    I know I'm not.
    Why not? I don't mean that rudely, but why not? The information on how is out there, the TM is out there, and you can buy all the items online easily enough.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
    Why not? I don't mean that rudely, but why not? The information on how is out there, the TM is out there, and you can buy all the items online easily enough.
    Simply a question of skill, I'm not that great at handyman stuff to begin with. This is the sort of work that requires attention and more than a little bit of skill.

    I don't know you, but I would infer, from your interest, your capability and your study (as you put forward in this thread), that putting an AR together is something that seems rather straightforward to you. For some of us, it isn't.

    For those who have it and have fun with it, I think they should go right at "rolling their own" so to speak :-) . For those less talented, and also less interested, good factory guns is the way to go.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  7. #47
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. I'm seriously bothered by the trope that people working on guns are either Bubba at his kitchen table or Bill Wilson's employees, and nothing in between.

    Someone who can build custom cars and motorcycles, build bicycles from bare frames and components (for exactly the same reasons one would do the same with an AR), solve reasonably difficult engineering problems, has a pretty good set of tools and zero hesitation if he needs to buy another, etc., should be able to do some machine-specific research and figure out how to do an effective and safe action cleanup or select and assemble quality AR parts that will work well together, even working at a kitchen table.
    Last edited by OlongJohnson; 08-15-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. I'm seriously bothered by the trope that people working on guns are either Bubba at his kitchen table or Bill Wilson's employees, and nothing in between.

    Someone who can build custom cars and motorcycles, build bicycles from bare frames and components (for exactly the same reasons one would do the same with an AR), solve reasonably difficult engineering problems, has a pretty good set of tools and zero hesitation if he needs to buy another, etc., should be able to do some machine-specific research and figure out how to do an effective and safe action cleanup or select and assemble quality AR parts that will work well together, even working at a kitchen table.
    I've personally never considered myself particularly skilled, rather that the task is not as tricky as some make it out to be, which is why I bristle at the "bubba" implications. Granted, I'm fully aware that a high level of skill and understanding is necessary if you want to build a gun that meets rather strenuous requirements (sub-MOA at 500yds, etc), but I don't think that level of attention is necessary for an *average* gun. This would be like insisting on a fully blueprinted custom engine in your daily driver. Sure, you can do it, but why?

    I've never considered myself exceptional, so when I'm able to do X, I assume everyone else can as well so I am a bit surprised when they can't (this is sometimes an issue at work).

    Chris

  9. #49
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. I'm seriously bothered by the trope that people working on guns are either Bubba at his kitchen table or Bill Wilson's employees, and nothing in between.

    Someone who can build custom cars and motorcycles, build bicycles from bare frames and components (for exactly the same reasons one would do the same with an AR), solve reasonably difficult engineering problems, has a pretty good set of tools and zero hesitation if he needs to buy another, etc., should be able to do some machine-specific research and figure out how to do an effective and safe action cleanup or select and assemble quality AR parts that will work well together, even working at a kitchen table.
    I've seen enough custom cars, motorcycles, and bicycles to know better than to trust any of those either. (nor would I particularly trust a Bill Wilson AR, FWIW).

    I am, often mistakenly, operating off the assumption that shooting and using the gun are the end-goals. if fiddle-fuck is the end goal then by all means proceed. I spent a lot of years with my head buried in fiddle-fuck, and it's just not for me anymore, and was almost entirely a waste of time in hindsight.

    the good news is that we're all just basically mucking around with a hobby, with firearms in general but in particular when it comes to ARs, so it's not like it really matters at the end of the day. Some guys enjoy the fiddle-fuck, and don't mind getting their frankegun out to the range, find it doesn't work, take it home, fiddle-fuck some more, go back again, repeat ad nauseum. I used to do that too. Now my time at the range is precious to me and I'd prefer to go to the range and shoot a match or a class and not worry that the gun works or doesn't, and if it happens not to then I pull out the backup and when I get home I send the defective gun back to whoever made it wrong. I am not interested in much beyond general maintenance of the firearm, YMMV.

    ETA:
    It's also worth noting that I find most people's definition of "better" to be not much more than an excuse to engage in fiddle-fuck. Then they take their "better" gun out to a match or class and get their clock cleaned by the guy with the factory gun.
    Last edited by rob_s; 08-15-2017 at 11:14 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. I'm seriously bothered by the trope that people working on guns are either Bubba at his kitchen table or Bill Wilson's employees, and nothing in between.

    Someone who can build custom cars and motorcycles, build bicycles from bare frames and components (for exactly the same reasons one would do the same with an AR), solve reasonably difficult engineering problems, has a pretty good set of tools and zero hesitation if he needs to buy another, etc., should be able to do some machine-specific research and figure out how to do an effective and safe action cleanup or select and assemble quality AR parts that will work well together, even working at a kitchen table.
    Not to beat a dead horse.

    But what got my feathers ruffled was the word versus.

    BCM had an AR-15 go 30,000+ rounds under the tutelage of Pat Rogers and many other examples (from Colt and BCM). Do I think the rifles that guys on this forum can go toe to toe with those Colt and BCM guns and hold their own on demand?

    Pretty much no, I don't. Do I think they could put their guns together well and maybe to that some day level?

    Sure.

    I'm just being honest.

    God Bless,

    Brandon

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