Reputable (Mil-Spec Or Better) Manufacturer vs. Home Build AR-15

[BWT]

Ultimately what things come down to is that I trust my qa and qc more than most manufacturers. Considering the amount of gear I have to send to companies like surefire, leupold, noveske , etc, for repair or replacement, given the very small amount I buy...I'm justified.


Noveske sbr failure to function, out of tolerance lower.
Surefire, multiple cans with clearance issues, potentially mounts as well, they wanted all of it.
Leupold, crap on the lenses
Kahles, undersized tube
Benelli, crooked front sight

Please consider, this is one customer, me, with a limited budget. I'd absolutely take a header off a bridge if I had to actually maintain 100+ tools for a department etc. and probably wish I could just build them myself. I know companies that source from places this thread espouses trust in....their reject rate is staggering. I will continue on my path until something I do has a problem. It hasnt so far. Can't say that about oem.

Fair enough. I've had a sample of 6 BCM Carbines in my family with the only person I know having an malfunction was me (stuck case when shooting Wolf after about 500-600 rounds) and two issues with green follower .44 MAG cheap magazines; the cartridges were released early into the top of the receiver and pushed the bullet into the cartridge (I put magpul ATF followers in and I've never had an issue since).

I had a Sionics lower with an A5 extension with the A5H2 buffer and a BCM Midlength upper and 16'' barrel that had two Failures to Eject; I was testing that before Form 1-ing it. I was so concerned I bought another BCM lower, shot about 50-100 rounds through it and Form 1'd that lower.

But, I had a family member tighten down a receiver extension after replacing the end plate with a Magpul ASAP plate; the receiver eventually worked loose and began to rotate freely. It appears he didn't re-install it properly.

Which... kind of highlights my concern.

YMMV. I'd vouch for BCM.

God Bless,

Brandon

[ReverendMeat]

BWT, did you ever figure out what the deal was with the A5? Granted that I haven't delved to deep into it but you're the only person I've heard having problems with it.

[gtae07]

"Would you rather have a factory private planes flying over your home or your neighbors' homebuilt planes?" - loose paraphrase of comment by someone else

Well, to be completely honest... the certified planes put food on my table, but I fly homebuilts exclusively and personally believe that in the long term they're the only way for light airplanes to remain viable for anything close to the average person. I want light aviation to grow and be prosperous again, just as I want legal and responsible firearm ownership to spread, and the only way I can see that happening is with homebuilts.

But back on topic... I "built" both of my rifles from Del-ton "complete kits" (assembled and tested uppers, with included LPK and stocks, for assembly onto a stripped lower) because at the time I bought them in 2008, that was the only way I could afford them. Well, that, and I like building things. They've both run absolutely reliably unless the .22LR conversion is installed, but I've been working on that.

Now, complete "starter" rifles are available for even less than I paid then.

Saving money isn't the only goal. If you're seeking knowledge, if you want to understand how the machine works, then the cost of the tools is largely irrelevant. I teach myself how to do a number of things that won't save me money, but will expand my knowledge. Not just guns, but a variety of realms.

Exactly.

If in the future I succumb to the desire for more rifles in this platform, I'll probably build it myself unless it's intended as a "serious" (defensive) one to replace my current 16".

[schüler]

... I want light aviation to grow and be prosperous again, just as I want legal and responsible firearm ownership to spread, and the only way I can see that happening is with homebuilts...
If in the future I succumb to the desire for more rifles in this platform, I'll probably build it myself unless it's intended as a "serious" (defensive) one to replace my current 16".

100% agreement on both points. First, there no doubt the individual (home builder, designer) has contributed as much or more innovation than commercial organizations. No one is saying home built rifles are crap. Only a fool would allege that.

Second is the quantification of quality; we have few well-defined standards but we do have them. As far as the AR family goes very few offer that complete product. A handful of companies go beyond that, modify design and have made a reputation on proven reliability and enhanced performance. Representing a home build as comparable - outside that scope of experience - is a bold or fool's statement.

Is there ever a satisfactory answer to this? Guns are wear items. They might work flawlessly up to round 4999 and start failing on round 5000. Round 5000 could be intended for a paper target or the bad guy coming through your window. At some point, we have to take it as a matter of faith that we or the manufacturer or both have fully vetted the weapon.

Agree with this as well.. There is never a 100% guarantee on the rifle. Or the supporting $0.40 cartridge and $10 magazine. Do the research, make an informed decision and have alternate systems and contingency plans. Be wary of any self-professed experts.

[Toonces]

I'd agree with him and I've posted similar things like this.

I've "built" two AR's this way.

Bought complete lowers from BCM (and one from Sionics); I bought the appropriate complete upper and that was that.

In fact, I've only bought one factory rifle (three that are all BCM Uppers, Lowers, and parts) and that was an SBR.

I love BCM and Colt. I have two BCM uppers and one lower. My Dad has one BCM upper. All trouble free. For someone who doesn't want to mess around assembling parts; for reasons of inclination, time, money, liability, or ability; they are a great.

Also, with buying tools; are you saving money?

Hell no. Nobody in this thread who has assembled their own has talked about saving money. Buying good parts one at a time is never going to be cheap. Buying good tools is never going to be cheap. But I looked at my collection of AR specific tools, and it wasn't a large amount of items or money. Hammerhead multi-tool was $40 at the time. PRI barrel nut wrench is $25 at Midway. I have an AR center punch that I ground a relief on for staking receiver extension castle nuts for $5. Roll pin punches were $30 (if you are going to do more than a couple, buy better). I made my own wooden blocks for barrel and receiver extension clamps. If having $100 or more of tools sitting around after the fact is an issue, buy BCM or Colt.

Also, the only way you can find out if you assembled it right is to thoroughly test it. But then did you test it enough?

Before I would trust ANY firearm for important tasks, I'm going to have over a case of ammo through it. The factory doesn't do that volume. I've read Colt does two 30 round mags for the government contract carbines, but I don't know that for a fact.

To me, Unobtanium's relationship with Jim Hodge probably means a lot of money spent. Either the military or taking classes that built relationships that led to buying the right parts.

Buying good parts could also mean spending some time on the non-derp (OK, less derp) M4Carbine forum and reading. I would avoid any forum that doesn't vigorously point out the folly of "parts is parts".

So, all things considered unless you just want to build it; for fun which is legitimate. I'd buy; it really is cheaper.

God Bless,

Brandon

Very true. I would add that people need to be honest about their mechanical abilities, or else you will likely have issues.

I understand and appreciate your desire to learn more about AR's but I guess my concern with average joe is that they may assemble a weapon like an AR-15 with a number of different motives. I think that AR's are awesome and I'd love to build my own or atleast know how to but, I'd say for 90-95% of the population assembling an AR15's. I don't think they will be as thoroughly made as a BCM, Colt, LMT, or DD. I say that with the OP in mind.

I don't know the numbers, but I wouldn't argue with your 90-95% of the population figure. However, that's not me. I have worked with many dozens of people (machinists, machine operators, inspectors, assemblers, quality engineers, manufacturing engineers, set-up people) that have the intuitive mechanical reasoning that would allow them to build an AR with no problems provided good parts, and the ability to trouble shoot it if something did go wrong. I've worked with hundreds of the same categories of people that I wouldn't trust with a screwdriver if there wasn't a supervisor standing watch. You are going to have a similar ratio in any large scale manufacturing plant. Certain people should never home build an AR. But they do, and give every DIYer a bad name in the process.

Now, I also get what you're saying about reliability and will a device always be durable? There's only one way to be fairly sure in my estimation and that's by looking at the products of a company and their track record. An individual doesn't have a QC department and they usually haven't gone through the hard fought and earned lessons associated with manufacturing a weapon on large scale. When one of us has an issue with an AR-15; what do we do typically? We go to the internet, post a thread, whatever. However, when someone at (enter reputable brand) gets an issue; they usually have a good idea because it's what they assemble for a living.

I pay more to buy parts from companies with that track record. If the parts are right, they will go together and work. The basic design is from the 1950s, and simple (elegant) in execution. The normal pitfalls, and solutions, are well known and available with a search. If a person can't be bothered to do some research by reading and watching, well then...doom on them.

The truly weird stuff will be weird to the big manufacturers as well. Normally, the one person who has been around for 40 years isn't likely to be readily available to explain to the newcomers that this was an issue in 1977, and additional inspections were incorporated into the process at that time. And then removed from the inspection process after 15 years because they never had an (another) issue and it was a "useless" check.

We rely on the input of others for our education and experience. Basically, in that case your knowledge is as good as the peer group you surround yourself with and if they can interpret the data that you've given them (who knows if it's the right data to begin with).

So, to me the home build pretty much with a few exceptions; doesn't compare to a Mil-Spec or Better AR because they don't have the experience, training, financial liability, legal liability, etc. to compete with the top tier manufacturers.

100% in agreement with the peer group and data points. But I don't agree with the next statement, or maybe how the "few exceptions" part was in there. After being employed in manufacturing for 19 years after school, and being around machining and fabrication my entire life, I don't place that much faith in large manufacturers. SIG is a large company, and they have the current P320 debacle in the news. I also don't think BCM falls into the large category, based on size and corporate structure. Not sure on LMT or DD.

I think there are plenty of people buying good parts and assembling without issues. You don't hear about it on the internet because they have no reason to ask questions. They don't need help when there are no issues.

Ultimately what things come down to is that I trust my qa and qc more than most manufacturers. Considering the amount of gear I have to send to companies like surefire, leupold, noveske , etc, for repair or replacement, given the very small amount I buy...I'm justified.


Noveske sbr failure to function, out of tolerance lower.
Surefire, multiple cans with clearance issues, potentially mounts as well, they wanted all of it.
Leupold, crap on the lenses
Kahles, undersized tube
Benelli, crooked front sight

Please consider, this is one customer, me, with a limited budget. I'd absolutely take a header off a bridge if I had to actually maintain 100+ tools for a department etc. and probably wish I could just build them myself. I know companies that source from places this thread espouses trust in....their reject rate is staggering. I will continue on my path until something I do has a problem. It hasnt so far. Can't say that about oem.

This in a nutshell. I'm not fast. I'm not cheap. But based on results...I'd say I'm good.

And Unobatanium, you have horrible luck!

[Toonces]

But, I had a family member tighten down a receiver extension after replacing the end plate with a Magpul ASAP plate; the receiver eventually worked loose and began to rotate freely. It appears he didn't re-install it properly.

Which... kind of highlights my concern.

YMMV. I'd vouch for BCM.

God Bless,

Brandon

He didn't stake it (proper) or use threadlocker (bubba). This is either an excellent or horrible example, depending on your viewpoint. Excellent for you because it was a first hand DIY failure. Horrible to me, because the need to do it properly has been known for 60 years, and the staking is so damn easy. No doubt, ignorant people performing "simple" tasks are prone to failure. Hence my multiple statements about mechanical aptitude. But there's lots of people without mechanical aptitude in every large manufacturing plant on the planet. And lots of them DIYing various things. It keeps professionals employed and "enthusiast" DIYers smug*.


*Trust me, I've done my share of stupid crap, both professionally an DIY. My main contention as it relates to ARs is that it CAN be done properly at home, even if many people don't.

[BWT]

BWT, did you ever figure out what the deal was with the A5? Granted that I haven't delved to deep into it but you're the only person I've heard having problems with it.

I didn't want to mess with it; I was working full-time, going to school full-time, and trying to get the Form 1 entered before the ATF changes to Trusts. If I had to guess it's a mid length gas system (relatively low pressure) and using a 5.3 ounce buffer (equivalent to an H3) and a rifle spring.

BCM ships their A5's with an A5H0. I was fairly confident that would fix it, but I had a known good experience with BCM; so rather than buy buffers, wait and take my chances. I knew since I was Form 1'ing it as an SBR and I'd pretty much have it for life for that reason; I just bought a new complete lower; it tested fine with the same known upper and I mailed the paperwork.

I'll test it out some time.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: The Sionics came with an A5H2.

ETA2: Also, the rear takedown pin wasn't install correctly and pulled completely out; it appears the little pin wasn't seated in the slot. I was able to depress it with a flat head, reinsert the takedown pin, rotate, and it locked in place.

Those two things were enough for me to be wary enough to not proceed with the Form 1 process.

ETA 3: No disagreement from me Toonces; I was using it as an illustration of what DIY'ers learn the hard way. That's kind of what I was getting at; you have a known quantity in a manufacturer (for better or worse). But, DIY'ers may not have the experience or know how to avoid commonly known issues, you know? Fred may be great, Tim may not check headspacing because his friends don't mention it and blow an AR-15 apart.

ETA 4: I was walking around at work (lunch break now) and thinking about Toonces' reply and to me a phrase this forum uses a lot is the Dunning Kruger effect. The thoughts being people have an inaccurate idea of their proficiency; I believe that's the case with a lot of men mechanically. That effect in this forum is usually with regards to that ability to operate a firearm. So, for that reason; I'm reluctant to compare DIY'ers because I think we have a similar effect with assembly of guns if we're being honest with ourselves.

I think to Toonce's credit people have to take a step back and make a realistic appraisal of their own mechanical capabilities before indicating they can make the same product or better.

[rob_s]

I didn't want to mess with it

Probably most important post in the thread.

Everyone thinks that their "flawless" build is because they have some personal friendship with Yoda, studied all the right internet threads, bought the best of the best of the best, adjusted all their minutiae, and came out with the gold standard of ARs. The problem is, there's not really any way of knowing if that all happened for those reasons, or simply due to stupid dumb luck.

One of the reasons I default back to factory guns now days is that there's someone to send the gun back to. Yeah, it sucks, but I'd rather box it up and send it back than get all fiddle-fuck down int he basement trying to figure out what I did wrong.

God bless the folks that enjoy all the fiddle-fuck, but that's not what interests me in guns (or really anything) these days. I'd rather be shooting than tinkering, and if I can't be shooting there's about 500 other things I'd rather be doing than tinkering.

[mtnbkr]

God bless the folks that enjoy all the fiddle-fuck, but that's not what interests me in guns (or really anything) these days. I'd rather be shooting than tinkering, and if I can't be shooting there's about 500 other things I'd rather be doing than tinkering.

My whole life is about fiddle-fucking with systems and "things". My job is about fiddle-fucking with people and processes (I design and sometimes run managed services). Hobby-wise, I am into guns, bikes, 4x4s, amateur radio, computers, reloading, bullet casting, and even small engine repair. I've been known to pick up a hobby just for the opportunity to tinker with something new. I'm always tinkering, always looking for improvements, always learning. Maybe this is why I don't see ARs as mechanically daunting. It's just a pile of parts to be understood. Sometimes I even use the things I fiddle-fuck with.

Chris

[gtae07]

My whole life is about fiddle-****ing with systems and "things". My job is about fiddle-****ing with people and processes (I design and sometimes run managed services). Hobby-wise, I am into guns, bikes, 4x4s, amateur radio, computers, reloading, bullet casting, and even small engine repair. I've been known to pick up a hobby just for the opportunity to tinker with something new. I'm always tinkering, always looking for improvements, always learning. Maybe this is why I don't see ARs as mechanically daunting. It's just a pile of parts to be understood. Sometimes I even use the things I fiddle-*** with.

I'm the exact same way. That's why I'm building an airplane. That's (part of) why I built two AR's. It's why I built a detached garage myself (so I'd have somewhere to build and tinker in). I've brewed beer, reloaded, done a little welding. I've tried cooking sous-vide just for the heck of it.

I am an engineer. To me, the world is one big machine standing there saying "figure out how I work, fix what's broken, and tweak what could be better". It's pretty much compulsive. I can't get something--gun, gadget, bicycle, or anything else--without feeling an irresistible urge to tweak it and customize it. First thing I do with a new computer is spend two days setting it up just how I like it. First thing I do with a new gun is take it home and field strip it for cleaning, then spend an hour examining it and figuring out how it works. My best days at work involve figuring out why airplanes aren't working right, and then figuring out how to fix them.

Heck, when I was all of two, my grandparents bought me a see-through helicopter with gears and stuff to drive the little rotor blades. Within 20 minutes I had it in pieces--I'd carefully disassembled it to see how it worked.