DB diatribe on triggers

[Bucky]

I love my J frame and its trigger but there are times I wish there was something with a little more capacity and a TDA trigger. I know Sig has the 239 and that there are a bunch of tiny .380s out there with abusive triggers and bad ergonomics. What I wish is that someone would make a single stack TDA in either .380 or preferably 9mm that fit somewhere around the SigP238 and Glock 43 size and weight category.

Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

[spinmove_]

Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

I’d say the XDe is M&P Shield sized, but yeah, it’s as close as you’re going to get in that size range. Using the safety/decocker on that pistol is a little wonky in my opinion, but then again, that’s true for any pistol that size or smaller with a safety/decocker. At least in my hands. Handguns that size and smaller I prefer to have DAO simply because the extra lever to make them anything but that gets to be a wonky and problematic annoyance.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Mark D]

I agreed with everything stated by DB. I've always been a fan of hammer-fired pistols for all of the reasons mentioned. Todd's articles about TDA are what originally led me to PF. And DB's "street trigger" thread is what led me to the LEM.

However, the problem I've encountered is that the LEM (and TDA) can be truly challenging to shoot well. On my P2000 with a factory "light LEM" trigger, I've invested 4000 rounds and a ton of dry fire, and I still suck with it compared to striker fired pistols.

(For background, I’m not a soul-stealer from Delta Team 6, or a USPSA GM. However, I’m not a complete Bubba either. I’ve attended several decent to good pistol courses, and have read aggressively – from Enos to ToddG, to Stoeger).

As a non-leo, my need to manage people at gunpoint is virtually nonexistent. However, if I do employ my pistol "for realz" I will need to make good hits and minimize errant rounds. And that’s what drove my recent decision to switch back to Glock as my primary carry gun. (Stock Glock trigger only). I simply shoot the Glock more accurately than my P2000 with light LEM, despite 6 months of dedicated, deliberate practice with the HK.

I often think of DB’s analogy comparing striker-fired guns to rattlesnakes. I agree. And I think I can safely handle rattlesnakes with my current training regime. If circumstances change, and I get too busy for daily dryfire and frequent live fire, I’ll relinquish the Glock for a trigger system with an extra margin of safety.

[Sal Picante]

Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

So... I won one of these at USPSA Nationals this year.

I just picked it up from my FFL yesterday:

Bigger than I expected. Certainly bigger than my Kahr PM9.
Grip is slippery. For as flat as it is, it certainly fits the hand nicely.

The trigger isn't bad... DA was reasonable out of the box and the SA is fairly light. Certainly workable.
Decocker is a safety/decock that requires a small grip shift to get leverage on it.
Riding the safety hard could engage the decoker and render the trigger inert... (Just point it out, not saying it is realistic)

Sights are decent. FO front sight with 2-dot rear sight (white paint).

My specimen has a small hitch: press the mag release and it "sticks". Positive ejection of empty magazines.

Shrugs... Back in the safe it goes, never to see the light of day...

[LangdonTactical]

Have you checked out the Springfield XDE?

Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!? I mean WTF, here we have a brand new gun, and the sides are slick as they can be. Have any of these engineers (and I am not talking about Springfield here, all of the manufactures are included here) ever fired a handgun? That area that says "Grip Zone" should be covered up with texture all the way to the slide stop!!!

But then I talked to the guy at Beretta that wanted to make the side of the PX4 like nonskid tape and got shot down cuz it did not look nice. Don't mind me, I will just be over here pulling my hair out!!!

[flyrodr]

Quite a few years ago, I attended an LAV course where he ran a drill to convince us that the trigger press was much more important to shooting well than was sight alignment. It was the drill where (using B8 repair centers) you shoot one shot with the front sight way to the right, one with it way left, then way high and finally way low. If you press the trigger smoothly each shot, none is all that far off center. Great drill, but it didn't really impress me all that much at the time, as I was shooting a 1911 with a really nice trigger. A couple of years ago, DB's writings made me realize that a more "deliberate" trigger mechanism was probably a better idea for a carry gun. Thus a foray into LEM triggers began. I actually liked them, adjusted pretty quickly, and accepted that multiple shots were slower than with a 1911-type trigger, and that that was a pretty good thing for an older guy. The LEMs did make me "think" more about keeping the sights aligned during the longer trigger press. Then, earlier this year, I attended an EL class (shooting my LEM) and became interested in developing some basic level of competence with a DA/SA trigger; that was when the earlier LAV lesson really hit home. That a jerky pull that releases a 3 1/2 - 4 lb trigger, or even a longish 5-lb LEM trigger, isn't nearly as problematic as is a jerky pull needed to release an 8-lb+ DA trigger. And working on the DA to SA transition requires even more focus on keeping the sights aligned by making smooth strokes of the trigger. So while I'm still not as competent/comfortable with the DA/SA transition as I am with the LEM (but working on it), I'm pretty doggone sure I'm better equipped, if ever a "real" situation confronts me, to make that split second go - no go decision with either of those triggers than with a striker-fired or 1911 trigger.

As others have said, many thanks to DB, EL and all the other SMEs that contribute regularly to P-F and help educate us regular folks.

[Trooper224]

Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!?

Because, you gotta have somewhere to put "Grip Zone!" Jeez.

[hufnagel]

Because, you gotta have somewhere to put "Grip Zone!" Jeez.

Because no one has figured out how to make texturing look sexy.

[Dagga Boy]

I agreed with everything stated by DB. I've always been a fan of hammer-fired pistols for all of the reasons mentioned. Todd's articles about TDA are what originally led me to PF. And DB's "street trigger" thread is what led me to the LEM.

However, the problem I've encountered is that the LEM (and TDA) can be truly challenging to shoot well. On my P2000 with a factory "light LEM" trigger, I've invested 4000 rounds and a ton of dry fire, and I still suck with it compared to striker fired pistols.

(For background, I’m not a soul-stealer from Delta Team 6, or a USPSA GM. However, I’m not a complete Bubba either. I’ve attended several decent to good pistol courses, and have read aggressively – from Enos to ToddG, to Stoeger).

As a non-leo, my need to manage people at gunpoint is virtually nonexistent. However, if I do employ my pistol "for realz" I will need to make good hits and minimize errant rounds. And thatÂ’s what drove my recent decision to switch back to Glock as my primary carry gun. (Stock Glock trigger only). I simply shoot the Glock more accurately than my P2000 with light LEM, despite 6 months of dedicated, deliberate practice with the HK.

I often think of DBÂ’s analogy comparing striker-fired guns to rattlesnakes. I agree. And I think I can safely handle rattlesnakes with my current training regime. If circumstances change, and I get too busy for daily dryfire and frequent live fire, IÂ’ll relinquish the Glock for a trigger system with an extra margin of safety.

I would simply add a warning to this. I would never want to tell someone what kind of trigger to use, I simply try to educate folks on the positives and negatives of the various systems so they can make an informed decision.

Part of that post stood out as one of those things people think but is often not the case. People at gun point or presenting a firearm into a situation that is not yet a full deadly force situation, but is headed there. Being ahead of the curve on bringing more faster is what dominates fights. If there was one take away from every really successful gunfighter I have ever talked to in my decades of study of how to win gunfights was have a gun in your hand before the fight starts. This takes managing people with guns to a serious level for everyone, not just cops. Cops have two huge benefits here. They do it often and build experience, and they get a ton of leeway in. Doing it because they are often using handguns in an offensive role. So, for non-LE who don't think they will need this skill set, I would add a huge caution. I have been in far more off duty/retired incidents than I should. I don't know how I am passing the "that looks like a victim Test" in several cases. Combine that with my black cloud of crap luck that follows me like a shadow, and I have pulled the "it's your day" card way too often. I have been in exactly Zero off duty shootings in which I am basically an armed citizen. This includes stopping multiple robberies. My ability to get ahead of those incidents was the key. Not a single one was a draw to a shot, but every single incident could have been if I was behind the situational awareness curve or the tactics curve that included the ability to deploy a pistol, or at least have it accesable before the shooting part started. The guns I have used in those incidents run the gamut from a J frame to Glocks, to a MARS Armament custom Thug 1911. So this isn't a 100% gun dependent, but it is 100% dependent on your ability to handle what gun you have chosen to carry without making a trigger finger mistake. I have some horrible habits for "shooting" that are great for managing a force incident. I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing. That allows a bunch of room for me with any system. For those who practice to a sub conscious level of drawing and placing a finger on the trigger to start the press or remove slack on the presentation......I hope you are good. Again, great for shooting and I know a bunch of folks who are true experts and have absolutely mastered this skill.....they are not the norm.

[Redhat]

Excellent points. I would suspect most training involves drawing followed automatically by shooting...hardly anyone is practicing drawing and assessing (not shooting). In the civilian CCW world might that present legal problems?