DB diatribe on triggers

[Doc_Glock]

Just went out with my training dummy in the yard and did some work on sort of a sub conscious straight presentation with the "decision to shoot" made and it was interesting to see how I have trained myself combined with experience.

My presentation in this scenario is straight to the target with my finger in index till the sights are on and confirmed, and then straight to the trigger and a press in a continuous motion taking he slack out and then pressing on the wall. I do this with both a LEM and a Striker gun.

With a TDA or a revolver I go to the trigger with no pressure on the presentation and then start the pressure as a smooth continuous press on confirmation of sights. I don't get aggressive early like Ernest talks about (who shoots at a totally different level than me), but it lets me at least position my finger earlier. Now that positioning is coming on the rise from ready, so it isn't like I am working at all with a finger on.

I think this stems from going to the Glock late in my career and being very aware of the trigger being different from my Revolvers and TDA guns. Basically a bit of rattlesnake treatment from the beginning of serious use (I briefly carried a G-17 Gen 1 early in my career off duty, but couldn't shoot them worth a crap, so it was short lived, also tried to brain a guy with it and it didn't have the same effect as my steel Revolvers....). I think this keys into education and understanding of how to train to a system.

So can I summarize that you treat your TDA/revolver triggers differently from your LEM/strikers on presentation in a decision to shoot scenario? And that you can subconsciously tell the difference?

[Dagga Boy]

So can I summarize that you treat your TDA/revolver triggers differently from your LEM/strikers on presentation in a decision to shoot scenario? And that you can subconsciously tell the difference?

Yes. That sub conscious difference comes from being repetitive enough and doing things a lot every day for a lot of years. It is no different than my ability to switch very easily from using the paddle magazine releases with my trigger finger on my HK's and a convential magazine release with everything else without much issue. I do "try" not to make things too confusing based on how much I am training. Because I don't train and shoot nearly as much as I did when I was a cop, I do try to stay a bit dedicated to a system, Currently, it is pretty much a Beretta PX4 and a J frame Smith as what I am vested in and working. If I went back to something else, I would spend a bit of time working the sub conscious mental routing, I use how we operate our vehicles as an analogy to this. If you buy a new car, you will really have to hint about controls initially on thinges like door latches and window controls. The fundementals will stay the same, but some of the operation of small controls takes adjustment, but not very long.

[blues]

Just went out with my training dummy in the yard and did some work on sort of a sub conscious straight presentation with the "decision to shoot" made and it was interesting to see how I have trained myself combined with experience.

My presentation in this scenario is straight to the target with my finger in index till the sights are on and confirmed, and then straight to the trigger and a press in a continuous motion taking he slack out and then pressing on the wall. I do this with both a LEM and a Striker gun.

With a TDA or a revolver I go to the trigger with no pressure on the presentation and then start the pressure as a smooth continuous press on confirmation of sights. I don't get aggressive early like Ernest talks about (who shoots at a totally different level than me), but it lets me at least position my finger earlier. Now that positioning is coming on the rise from ready, so it isn't like I am working at all with a finger on.

That's pretty much an accurate articulation of what I do with my Glocks.

I can't speak to what I do with my revolvers (at the moment) because I don't shoot them as often nowadays and I don't have the opportunity to test at the moment. It'll be interesting to check if, or how much my presentation is different.

Like you, I come from a revolver background, the first several years of my LE career carrying S&W Models 15, 19 and 26 on and off duty...and then transitioning to semi-autos...single action, TDA and ultimately Glocks thereafter.

[psalms144.1]

That's pretty much an accurate articulation of what I do with my Glocks.

Same here, and what I've been doing for the last decade of carrying GLOCKs are primary pistol. I HATE the fact that most of my shooters can't follow suit with their issued DAK triggers - if they don't prep the trigger during the press out, they yank their shots low and to the off hand every time...

[blues]

Same here, and what I've been doing for the last decade of carrying GLOCKs are primary pistol. I HATE the fact that most of my shooters can't follow suit with their issued DAK triggers - if they don't prep the trigger during the press out, they yank their shots low and to the off hand every time...

I meant to add in my earlier reply that the reasons quoted by Darryl in his post account in large measure for why I ordinarily don't bother shooting the handguns of others when I train alongside them.

While it is clearly fun to shoot the other weapons...Para, Colt, CZ, HK etc. I shoot primarily to keep my skill level up with my carry firearms...Glocks and occasionally a S&W 642 or 686+. So while I enjoy the recreational aspect of it, I want to keep my mind and muscle memory attuned to the grip and trigger feel of my carry guns.

Obviously it's not a hard and fast rule but it works well for me and my mindset. Mileage will certainly vary for others in this regard.

[octagon]

One thing I've wondered about, and have probably seen comments about, but not really hashed out in detail.

It seems like the force-travel profile of a trigger should make a difference. "Area under the curve" is how it's typically referred to. In engineer speak, the amount of work done (energy transferred to the fire control system) before arriving at the break. A low-force takeup with a wall at the end is significantly different than a more or less linear force increase due to compressing the spring the whole way through the travel and a minimal step or wall at the end, even if the actual force required to move the trigger the last 0.001" before the break is the same.

It seems intuitive to me that this should matter in flinch response. A person can apply a significant amount of force to a wall, over a short distance for a short period of time. But can they do a significant amount of work in that short time?

Does any of the literature regarding testing of flinch response get into this area? I am pretty sure I've only seen discussion of force level, not work done.

I agree. This is an area not often considered or discussed as it relates to accuracy, ease of ND and trigger pull in general. It is sort of like the torque curve of a VTEC Honda compared to a modern VW turbo. One is a slow gentle rise then a huge increase and the other is flat and consistent. They may both make the same amount of TQ but in very different ways. A gun comparison may be described to the masses as a Glock having a 5.5 trigger pull total weight but having the take up only take 2 lbs and the wall being short and taking the full 5.5 to break. Another Glock could have the same trigger pull length and 5.5 lb pull weight to break but using a combination of NY #1 spring and 3.5 connector you get a pull that is pretty close to 5.5 lbs from start until break with no light take up and wall just the same weight start to finish. Granted the examples aren't perfect but I hope it gets the issue across as I understood it and for others.

The reason I don't think it has been studied or applied for consideration is how it is measured. It is easy enough to use a trigger pull gauge and get the pull weight of any trigger TDA,DAO,DAK,SA or striker etc.. and have a number and be able to compare across platforms and to the same type of trigger mechanism. To get the pull weight at each mm or 1/16" or smaller increments is more challenging. The most accurate way to do this would be with a trigger graphing device.

http://triggerscan.com/pages/overvie...-analysing.php

http://triggerscan.com/media/Trigger...Action_lg.html

A good consistent digital trigger pull gauge may give a courser measurement that could be graphed.

Here is a basic example between Glock and PPQ.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p...gger-pull.html

[OlongJohnson]

I've been thinking about creating something like that German setup for some time. I have access to the necessary electronics, just need to dial in the fixturing. I'd also want it to work with long guns. Looks like theirs might do that, as it seems to all just be clamped to a square tube.

It appears the graphs on the Walther forum are just someone's approximated conceptual drawing, rather than measured data.

[Clusterfrack]

I wonder how long it would take people at my workplace to call the cops if I put some guns in the Instron. :-)

[txhorns]

Given the multitude of LEM triggers, is there a consensus as to whether or not certain LEM triggers (heavier) provide a significantly higher margin of safety over others (lighter)? Specific LEM variants are rarely discussed in these type of threads.

I'm thinking of getting back into the P30 LEM game after a long break, what's the current cool kid variant these days? I sure see a lot more V1's nowadays.

[Dagga Boy]

Given the multitude of LEM triggers, is there a consensus as to whether or not certain LEM triggers (heavier) provide a significantly higher margin of safety over others (lighter)? Specific LEM variants are rarely discussed in these type of threads.

I'm thinking of getting back into the P30 LEM game after a long break, what's the current cool kid variant these days? I sure see a lot more V1's nowadays.

I have used them all and like the V1 best.