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Thread: DB diatribe on triggers

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A few things are unresolved in my mind:


    Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

    How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

    I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.

    Thanks for that. So often any discussion quickly devolves into extremes instead of the real issue. I can't remember the last time I saw someone discussing a super light trigger for a defensive gun like 2 lbs. Hell I rarely see any discussion of trigger weights below 4-4.5 lbs. As you stated the differences are fairly narrow in band. Many of the people who seem to be most concerned and wound up by the minor differences don't have trigger pull gauges and/or don't realize or factor in the trigger's smoothness,pull length,where the take up and wall occur within the pull or stacking.

    You last line isn't ambiguous at all. There really is no one size fits all solution. It is one of the few absolutes.

  2. #122
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A few things are unresolved in my mind:

    Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

    Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

    How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

    I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.
    I agree-there usually isn't one answer. but a lot of outliers can (and should) be eliminated by eliminating the "straw ends" as you put it.

    While not necessarily a "one answer", over the past year in particular, through empirical experience, I've been slowly moving towards my .40 HK P30L wth V1 light LEM being an excellent duty/threat management/light wilderness gun (light wilderness I'm defining as day hikes where there's a low probability of the gun being immersed in any media requiring more than a field-strip {if even that} to clean/make operational). The P30 is exceptionally ergonomic and I naturally index and shoot well with it. And it's relatively light, and magazines are extremely well made.

    Similarly, I'm considering my 9mm Gen3 Glock G34, with a NY1/minus connector, using DocGKR vetted cartridges for urban use, and Underwood/Lehigh cartridges for wilderness use as another viable "all use" weapon.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 11-02-2017 at 01:58 PM.

  3. #123
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A few things are unresolved in my mind:

    Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

    Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

    How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

    I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.
    Agree. There is a balance a shooter will pick. On the balance, I am settled with Glocks using OEM connectors that settle in near 5.5 and 1911s on which I'm happy with vigorous use of the safety. I also prioritize a first dead nuts hit very highly.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A few things are unresolved in my mind:

    Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

    Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

    How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

    I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.
    Well I'm probably not really qualified to respond to this, but I am considering moving to two different pistols for my defensive needs. I am a long time 1911 user and I am fairly comfortable with that. But I recently bought two Beretta 92 series guns and an AIWB holster to go with the Compact model. I am going to keep practicing with the Berettas for a while and possibly start using my Compact for my carry gun. My HD gun will probably continue to be a 1911. I will practice with both and always have one of each in my range bag.

    I will only go forward with this if I feel shooting both types doesn't prove detrimental to my level of ability with either. AND if I can get over the fact that the Lightweight Commander just carries so nice.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Thanks much for that post! Chuck full of good stuff.

    Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

    It's good that this discussion has continued and is on the topic of: after I have my platform that helps but doesn't solve the problem, what do I do to solve the problem the rest of the way?

    I'm not trying to bag on DB with his use of the term, "Prisoner taking gun". I understand what he means. But others might not. DB is explaining by example the definition of a, "prisoner taking gun". As you rightly suggest as a person who doesn't have arrest powers, taking prisoners in my state is an element of the definition to, "kidnapping" or if you're lucky, "Unlawful Imprisonment." In my state I have the power to point or display my weapon in order to stop force that is being used or about to be used against me. So if I can use lethal force then I can display the weapon, obvious. But many civilians have no clue when they can display the weapon without shooting. That is a big gray area that gets many civilians in trouble.

    It's always amazing to me that some people will think about this subject deeply, make a decision one way or the other and then when asked, they admit they have never even looked at the laws of their state. Having a well developed set of mental triggers that allow one to know when to draw to display or to shoot is probably more important than much of this discussion.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.

  6. #126
    Site Supporter LtDave's Avatar
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    I’ve recently hung up my Glocks and Sigs and have switched to carrying P30 V1 LEM exclusively. Like JonInWa, my primary gun is a P30L in .40 for basically the same reasons.

    Faster split times will not make a difference in a gunfight. Target identification (working through the OODA loop) is where your time will be spent. That is where the games like USPSA and IDPA really diverge from the reality of gunfighting. I think both are great and recommend them for gun handling and shooting practice, but don’t ever consider them a gunfight analog. In both games, you know exactly what the bad guys and no shoots will look like and get a chance to walk through and see where they are before each stage. Not so much in a 360 degree environment.
    The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
    disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.

  7. #127
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDave View Post
    I’ve recently hung up my Glocks and Sigs and have switched to carrying P30 V1 LEM exclusively. Like JonInWa, my primary gun is a P30L in .40 for basically the same reasons.

    Faster split times will not make a difference in a gunfight. Target identification (working through the OODA loop) is where your time will be spent. That is where the games like USPSA and IDPA really diverge from the reality of gunfighting. I think both are great and recommend them for gun handling and shooting practice, but don’t ever consider them a gunfight analog. In both games, you know exactly what the bad guys and no shoots will look like and get a chance to walk through and see where they are before each stage. Not so much in a 360 degree environment.
    And while I'll probably never reach the split potential (i.e., pure shootability) with the P30L V1 as compared to a 1911 or SFA pistol, I find that the "real world" shootability/split times are certainly more than adequate. The tailorable backstrap and side panel ergos, my index with it, and its intrinsic accuracy when combined with the additionally safety of the hammer-fired LEM V1 I personally I find to be a significant determining factor in its favor for many use scenarios.

    While I may wish that it had a Glock-simplistic detailed disassembly/reassembly, probably 95%+ of the time that's irrelevant for me personally; canned air and a field-strip cleaning/lube is more than adequately sufficient.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 11-02-2017 at 03:33 PM.

  8. #128
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Agree. There is a balance a shooter will pick. On the balance, I am settled with Glocks using OEM connectors that settle in near 5.5 and 1911s on which I'm happy with vigorous use of the safety. I also prioritize a first dead nuts hit very highly.
    I think the bolded point needs to be emphasized.

    Focusing the argument exclusively or nearly exclusively on ‘split times’, is a bit of a Straw Man, as it presupposes an accurate first shot. I would submit most of you are well past the point of being able to get ‘hits’ (however you want to define it i.e. between the nipples or an 8” circle) first shot on the draw, no matter what you are shooting.

    I personally am very far down on this Bell curve just yet, and have not spent the training time/ammo sufficient to achieve success. I feel like I represent the vast majority of shooters who struggle with this. For us, limiting us to one gun (or gun type if you will) and then focusing on reliable accuracy is (imho) a better value for money.

    Had I actually understood @Doc_GKR’s suggestion to ‘just get two Glock 19s and then buy ammo and training’, I’d have a lot more disposable cash these days. Probably shoot better, too.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    It's always amazing to me that some people will think about this subject deeply, make a decision one way or the other and then when asked, they admit they have never even looked at the laws of their state. Having a well developed set of mental triggers that allow one to know when to draw to display or to shoot is probably more important than much of this discussion.
    Applaud DB's raising the awareness. Have pondered all of these issues at different times. Hardware and software combined. So many great points in this thread. Being a civilian with a profession and CCW scares the shit out of me. Southnarc's ECQC course opened my eyes tremendously, my selection of precanned verbal response, how I would deescalate / escalate, my holster consideration, my empty hand skills, and scary realization that ECQC distance is so dangerous, in that the time compression really adds potential for error. Andrew Branca gave a local lecture I attended and it will / should humble you. Your perception of the law vs. the law, case law, local prosecutorial bias etc. all will come to play.

    On the hardware issues, some brief thoughts; it was way easier to snatch the gun from kydex rigs than leather rigs when we worked on retention. Some guns I think are potential disasters on the street. For example, a PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light. Oddlly, when I shot my DAK's, my first shot is right on more often than not, I think because as you are indexing and aligning more "carefully" from the draw to discharge-maybe follow through? The P99 AS trigger seems ideal, if decocked into DA mode as first shot requires intention, and f/u shots can be shot quickly from the short reset. Lastly, I wish more makers offered safeties. Guys thanks for all your valuable insight.

    Gentlemen, walk softly and carry many big sticks.
    Dave

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Polecat View Post
    On the hardware issues, some brief thoughts; it was way easier to snatch the gun from kydex rigs than leather rigs when we worked on retention. Some guns I think are potential disasters on the street. For example, a PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light. Oddlly, when I shot my DAK's, my first shot is right on more often than not, I think because as you are indexing and aligning more "carefully" from the draw to discharge-maybe follow through? The P99 AS trigger seems ideal, if decocked into DA mode as first shot requires intention, and f/u shots can be shot quickly from the short reset. Lastly, I wish more makers offered safeties. Guys thanks for all your valuable insight.

    Gentlemen, walk softly and carry many big sticks.
    Dave
    This perfectly illustrates my point about people having strong opinions about things being safe or not based on very fine differences or perceived differences. As an example, Dave thinks “a PPQ while great to game and range use is just too light,” where the P99 AS trigger “seems ideal.”

    What I find so interesting, is the PPQ has more take up than a VP9 or Glock, and a similar trigger weight, but it is “too light.” The P99 is “ideal” even though it’s reset and follow up shots are as or more short and light than a PPQ, and there is the potential to get confused about which of the three trigger conditions the P99 is in.

    For a supposedly software focused forum, it seems like we are reducing safety to hardware choices, when I suspect software is far and away the most significant factor in overall safety. Holstering with your finger on the trigger is going to lead to a bad outcome regardless if it is a Glock, VP9, PPQ or P10-C. And if you tell me you run an M&P with a safety, would you bet if you would holster with finger on the trigger, you are confident you would have put the safety on, or in the case of a DA/SA, decocked first?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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