DB diatribe on triggers

[GJM]

As we have discussed forever, pursuant to the rule of no free lunch, triggers that are easier to shoot the stuff you want to shoot with are also easier to shoot stuff you don’t want to shoot with.

[JBP55]

As we have discussed forever, pursuant to the rule of no free lunch, triggers that are easier to shoot the stuff you want to shoot with are also easier to shoot stuff you don’t want to shoot with.

What he said!

[OnionsAndDragons]

If you're good with .21 or so splits on a Bill Drill the LEM won't hold you back.
If you just have to have .15 splits go elsewhere.

Myself, I'm very content in the .21-.25 range because my conscious brain can actually count and account for rounds at that speed.

This has been my experience to a t.

I've found that when shooting target discrimination oriented drills, where the action is not known before the drill begins, I can shoot the LEM guns just as well as better shooters with striker guns if we are both shooting for full accountability.

On an entirely separate note: good to see you back for now @JodyH


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

As discussed many times, LEM offers handling benefits but yields less performance per unit of skill when shooting for time. Only you can decide if that is a good trade off.

As we have discussed forever, pursuant to the rule of no free lunch, triggers that are easier to shoot the stuff you want to shoot with are also easier to shoot stuff you don’t want to shoot with.

One of the things GJM does (which gets lost often) because of his shooting volume is he actually tailors guns to what he is doing. For AIWB daily concealed carry, DA/SA or LEM hammer gun. For shooting competition and anything speed related, he is shooting a striker guns with a trigger he can manipulate at speed and is shooting some insane times on drills, and seems to be doing well in USPSA (most don't realize how old GJM actually is and shooting at his level relative to age is pretty amazing). He carries a well thought out backwoods gun in a place where Grizzly and other large animals are a real issue and not just a fantasy reason why another big bore Magnum is "needed". He also has to deal with many different state laws as he traverses bothe the United States and Canada by plane and that will affect certain choices as well.
This all fits into the idea that you need to fit the gun to the task. One of the hardest things I had to do as a young cop who was also a shooter was to wrap my head around the idea that I was in the prisoner taking business and not the gunfighting business and accept that prisoner taking guns were harder to shoot than gunfighting or competition guns. We ware blessed that we have had a bunch of folks really master the threat management Handguns and can learn from those folks to shoot them well.

I would also note that I find it humorous that folks are really in denial about the effects of triggers in the nano seconds of use. We all get the fact that no trigger weight will overcome mass failure while a finger is on a trigger. We have been preaching about this for decades and Wayne Dobbs has been one of he leading advocates of understanding the work of Dr.Roger Enoka since it was initially published. What we often don't talk about is the on target ND. I know that I have fired rounds in training and competition that "hit" (and some really good) and the round going off was a huge surprise. On paper targets, this is not a big deal. I have initiated this with students with the application of enough stress and confusion in some drills. Now translate that to shooting at another human in the United States and working through the investigation and intensive questioning that goes through that is a whole new ball game. Want to run a 2 pound trigger and "my finger is the safety", well, it is America, roll the dice and take the ride. Just don't cry if that choice becomes not a good one later. Also, think not about you carrying a handgun to manage highly complex problems with a "Really Shootable" trigger.....think about most of the rest of the population and your typical police officer, or armed security officer with a really easy to shoot firearm. Who makes the call on that one? Who pays when things don't go as planned?

[JHC]

One of the things GJM does (which gets lost often) because of his shooting volume is he actually tailors guns to what he is doing. For AIWB daily concealed carry, DA/SA or LEM hammer gun. For shooting competition and anything speed related, he is shooting a striker guns with a trigger he can manipulate at speed and is shooting some insane times on drills, and seems to be doing well in USPSA (most don't realize how old GJM actually is and shooting at his level relative to age is pretty amazing). He carries a well thought out backwoods gun in a place where Grizzly and other large animals are a real issue and not just a fantasy reason why another big bore Magnum is "needed". He also has to deal with many different state laws as he traverses bothe the United States and Canada by plane and that will affect certain choices as well.
This all fits into the idea that you need to fit the gun to the task. One of the hardest things I had to do as a young cop who was also a shooter was to wrap my head around the idea that I was in the prisoner taking business and not the gunfighting business and accept that prisoner taking guns were harder to shoot than gunfighting or competition guns. We ware blessed that we have had a bunch of folks really master the threat management Handguns and can learn from those folks to shoot them well.

I would also note that I find it humorous that folks are really in denial about the effects of triggers in the nano seconds of use. We all get the fact that no trigger weight will overcome mass failure while a finger is on a trigger. We have been preaching about this for decades and Wayne Dobbs has been one of he leading advocates of understanding the work of Dr.Roger Enoka since it was initially published. What we often don't talk about is the on target ND. I know that I have fired rounds in training and competition that "hit" (and some really good) and the round going off was a huge surprise. On paper targets, this is not a big deal. I have initiated this with students with the application of enough stress and confusion in some drills. Now translate that to shooting at another human in the United States and working through the investigation and intensive questioning that goes through that is a whole new ball game. Want to run a 2 pound trigger and "my finger is the safety", well, it is America, roll the dice and take the ride. Just don't cry if that choice becomes not a good one later. Also, think not about you carrying a handgun to manage highly complex problems with a "Really Shootable" trigger.....think about most of the rest of the population and your typical police officer, or armed security officer with a really easy to shoot firearm. Who makes the call on that one? Who pays when things don't go as planned?

Thanks much for that post! Chuck full of good stuff.

Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

[Dagga Boy]

Thanks much for that post! Chuck full of good stuff.

Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

Here lies the problem. So......you have never taken a person at gun point or held someone at the end of a gun before in your life, and reality hands you that problem. How good are you going to be on your first rodeo? I am glad I got to learn about taking down people at the end of a gun with a revolver as a rookie. I had 21 people at gun point my first week at work. That was as a 23 year old idiot with very little life experience and during the phase of FTO training where you aren't supposed to be doing anything. This was also in a time frame where we were taught to place our finger on the trigger (I was a bit of a problem child because I already knew better, but likely still unconsciously had my finger on the trigger while working through the training scars). So.....first time up, what trigger do you want while dealing with the obnoxious drunk neighbor being a Complete asshole, or a couple crap talking teen burglars with a different skin pigmentation than yours? Gunshop/internet answer of "I d just shoot em" is great for those who have massive financial backing and a last name of Clinton to guarantee no bad things will happen,

[JodyH]

One of the things GJM does (which gets lost often) because of his shooting volume is he actually tailors guns to what he is doing.

"Mission drives strategy drives gear"

[Dagga Boy]

"Mission drives strategy drives gear"

And this is why I missed you.....:-)

[GJM]

A few things are unresolved in my mind:

Is it better to pick system that is optimized for a specific need or to go with the system you are most familiar with? Depending upon how you answer that, you could decide to carry the striker you compete with, or instead carry for example, a DA/SA or LEM, even though the bulk of your training is with a striker.

Do small increments in trigger travel and weight actually translate into actual safety benefits in a defensive encounter. Throwing out the straw ends, like a 2 pound competition trigger and 12 pound DAO, many of the relevant choices fall within a relatively small band. Some people think striker X at 5.3 pounds is carry-able but would never carry striker Y at 5.1 pounds. Some think the SA on the Langdon PX4C is too light for carry, others think it is just right.

How does your ability to hit what you shoot at fit in to the analysis. Should a shooter that struggles with a P30SK LEM, for example, stick with that system even though a hypothetical G5/19 might offer much better shooting results.

I don't think there is a one answer fits all solution.

[Trooper224]

Do you think it fair to say that a non-LEO civilian NOT in the prisoner taking business who is well trained/well practiced, has a less critical need for a prisoner taking pistol/trigger? Since they may only actually draw to fight? Which is not to suggest I'm fishing for a backdoor angle on a tweaked trigger SFA range trick pistol. I'm not. I've no interest in sub 5 lb triggers unless it's a tuned 1911 and even there 4-4.5 would be all I want and have mine set up such.

The problem with that mindset is this: most civilians aren't any more self aware than most cops, probably less, since they primarily live in fantasy land when it comes to firearms deployment. I don't care how much time one spends on the competition range. If you honestly think that's stress, you've never known the real shit down your pants leg stress of a gunfight. Most aren't as well trained as they think, nor as practiced as they claim. Consequently, most civilians would be best served with a double action revolver with a long DA trigger and a simple manual of arms.

Personally, I think priority should be placed on ones financial and mental well being post-shooting rather than a few tenths of a second on a shot timer, or an inch or two in group size. The latter may be great for interwebz chest puffing, but the former will keep you from losing your house and life savings.