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Thread: DB diatribe on triggers

  1. #51
    I found DB's comments to be outstanding- specifically about drawing to an index. On another thread about whether to go on safe or not, I mentioned about training to put a M4 on safe so much that I couldn't imagine not doing it.
    During dry fire- I've focused on pulling the trigger quickly, in order to try to go fast- it becomes automatic.
    Could it become so automatic that I make a mistake in a ccw incident?
    This country needs an enema- Blues approved sig line

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger.
    This is good. I'm going to start practicing this.

  3. #53
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger.
    I do this as well.
    I also primarily do "Non Standard Responses" (NSR), and randomly vary the number and placement of shots on every draw.
    I try to stay out of the 2 A's per draw rut that is easy to fall into, especially when playing a lot of gun games.
    I vary my response to the "go stimuli" from nothing more than clearing cover and obtaining a firing grip all the way up to a mag dump COM on the move.
    I also try not to be a slave to a buzzer. There are days at the range where it's pretty empty and I'll stand casually in front of my target over in the pistol bays and use a rifle shot from the adjacent rifle range as my "go" stimulus.

    The only exception is when I go out to work on something very specific that I think requires multiple repetitions.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I would simply add a warning to this. I would never want to tell someone what kind of trigger to use, I simply try to educate folks on the positives and negatives of the various systems so they can make an informed decision.

    Part of that post stood out as one of those things people think but is often not the case. People at gun point or presenting a firearm into a situation that is not yet a full deadly force situation, but is headed there. Being ahead of the curve on bringing more faster is what dominates fights. If there was one take away from every really successful gunfighter I have ever talked to in my decades of study of how to win gunfights was have a gun in your hand before the fight starts. This takes managing people with guns to a serious level for everyone, not just cops. Cops have two huge benefits here. They do it often and build experience, and they get a ton of leeway in. Doing it because they are often using handguns in an offensive role. So, for non-LE who don't think they will need this skill set, I would add a huge caution. I have been in far more off duty/retired incidents than I should. I don't know how I am passing the "that looks like a victim Test" in several cases. Combine that with my black cloud of crap luck that follows me like a shadow, and I have pulled the "it's your day" card way too often. I have been in exactly Zero off duty shootings in which I am basically an armed citizen. This includes stopping multiple robberies. My ability to get ahead of those incidents was the key. Not a single one was a draw to a shot, but every single incident could have been if I was behind the situational awareness curve or the tactics curve that included the ability to deploy a pistol, or at least have it accesable before the shooting part started. The guns I have used in those incidents run the gamut from a J frame to Glocks, to a MARS Armament custom Thug 1911. So this isn't a 100% gun dependent, but it is 100% dependent on your ability to handle what gun you have chosen to carry without making a trigger finger mistake. I have some horrible habits for "shooting" that are great for managing a force incident. I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing. That allows a bunch of room for me with any system. For those who practice to a sub conscious level of drawing and placing a finger on the trigger to start the press or remove slack on the presentation......I hope you are good. Again, great for shooting and I know a bunch of folks who are true experts and have absolutely mastered this skill.....they are not the norm.
    That’s a very humbled response with someone with law enforcement experience. And a far fucking cry from the “operator” bullshit training, and gun fora repated ad nauseam. Everyone thinks they are Billy the Kid with their modded Glock.
    I joined this forum due to your OP cause it was some sense in a land of the nonsensical. You need a margin of error. If the new thing was some company was trying to market was a 3.5-4 lb AR trigger with NO safety, people would instantly bash. Calling it dangerous, someone is gonna kill themselves or others. Somehow in the pistol world it’s ok. An ever increasing tendency to build new wonder strikers with 4lb triggers, short breaks, and minuscule resets, to make up for fundamentals. Deep thinking, and almost 20 years of TDA training while carrying Glocks this past few years really got my mind working, and that margin of error I need is pushing me back to TDA. I’ve quite enjoyed opening up my safe to grab what size I need, from a 43, to 26, to 19, or 17, and holstering it with a spare mag on the belt. Same controls, same trigger, same everything. But I’ve realized that “convenience” has come at the expense of leaving myself a margin of error, and I don’t enjoy strikers as much so I practice less. During my 20 years of TDA, I loved to practice, like I love driving a manual transmission in a car. I’ve got more control over a TDA, more feel, and more margin of error. TDA is home. Strikers are an automatic transmission. Sorry the only analogy I can think of that correlates, for me.

    I truly thank you for the OP, as it isn’t anything new, but a deadly reminder of reality in a sea of bullshit, ego, and gun industry marketing. I do think we’d have less shootings in general with TDA, and fewer ND’s. It forces the user to be absolutely deliberate, and at the same time gives the user more margin of error. Not every draw means fire. Sadly current training, not everywhere, but commonplace, has led to a dumbing down and the least common denominator. Strikers are cheaper, easier for armorers, just easier. I am reminded often in life, the more difficult way is more rewarding, and many times leads to more expertise. I can only speak for myself, but it may be true for the industry, some times a step back leads to two steps forward. I just wish we had more modern TDA polymer platforms giving us light weight, high capacity, and solid reliability. At least we have Beretta and Heckler and Koch, and a gamut of revolvers. That’s better than nothing. I am honestly tired of pushing myself to like the staple gun nature of strikers. They lack the feel of a solid TDA, and feel = control. I am concerned with splits, but more concerned with safety, and having a margin of error in tense situations.

    My novel ramblings of the day.
    Last edited by Bodhi; 10-26-2017 at 10:32 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    I would simply add a warning to this. I would never want to tell someone what kind of trigger to use, I simply try to educate folks on the positives and negatives of the various systems so they can make an informed decision.

    Part of that post stood out as one of those things people think but is often not the case. People at gun point or presenting a firearm into a situation that is not yet a full deadly force situation, but is headed there. Being ahead of the curve on bringing more faster is what dominates fights. If there was one take away from every really successful gunfighter I have ever talked to in my decades of study of how to win gunfights was have a gun in your hand before the fight starts. This takes managing people with guns to a serious level for everyone, not just cops. Cops have two huge benefits here. They do it often and build experience, and they get a ton of leeway in. Doing it because they are often using handguns in an offensive role. So, for non-LE who don't think they will need this skill set, I would add a huge caution. I have been in far more off duty/retired incidents than I should. I don't know how I am passing the "that looks like a victim Test" in several cases. Combine that with my black cloud of crap luck that follows me like a shadow, and I have pulled the "it's your day" card way too often. I have been in exactly Zero off duty shootings in which I am basically an armed citizen. This includes stopping multiple robberies. My ability to get ahead of those incidents was the key. Not a single one was a draw to a shot, but every single incident could have been if I was behind the situational awareness curve or the tactics curve that included the ability to deploy a pistol, or at least have it accesable before the shooting part started. The guns I have used in those incidents run the gamut from a J frame to Glocks, to a MARS Armament custom Thug 1911. So this isn't a 100% gun dependent, but it is 100% dependent on your ability to handle what gun you have chosen to carry without making a trigger finger mistake. I have some horrible habits for "shooting" that are great for managing a force incident. I spend most of my time practicing drawing to a trigger finger in index rather than on the trigger. Hurts shooting for speed, great for not shooting the wrong folks or when it is not fully justified. Most accomplished gunfighter I know does the exact same thing. That allows a bunch of room for me with any system. For those who practice to a sub conscious level of drawing and placing a finger on the trigger to start the press or remove slack on the presentation......I hope you are good. Again, great for shooting and I know a bunch of folks who are true experts and have absolutely mastered this skill.....they are not the norm.
    Thanks for the response and the reminder, Daryl. I see your point.

  6. #56
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nesbitt View Post
    This is good. I'm going to start practicing this.

    Yeah. I've kinda lost my way. One of the downsides of playing games. You know what's in front of you and that the shot IS going to happen.

    Thanks for the wakeup, DB!
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  7. #57
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    A fellow troop I often shoot with is a big competitor, he lives for it. In fact, when we've been shooting on our off time I've never seen him use his off duty weapon from concealment, or his duty rig. It's all about beating the timer and prepping the trigger during the press out in order to gain speed. I shoot as DB does, with my finger indexed alongside the weapon during the draw stroke, until it's time to shoot. His times on the shot timer are always a bit faster than mine, which his huge ego loves. On the other hand, guess which one of us has had successful experience on the two way range and guess who hasn't?
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  8. #58
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi View Post
    lI’ve quite enjoyed opening up my safe to grab what size I need, from a 43, to 26, to 19, or 17, and holstering it with a spare mag on the belt. Same controls, same trigger, same everything..
    Boy can I relate to this. While I am starting to appreciate the TDA. This fact alone keeps me in Glock.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!? I mean WTF, here we have a brand new gun, and the sides are slick as they can be. Have any of these engineers (and I am not talking about Springfield here, all of the manufactures are included here) ever fired a handgun? That area that says "Grip Zone" should be covered up with texture all the way to the slide stop!!!

    But then I talked to the guy at Beretta that wanted to make the side of the PX4 like nonskid tape and got shot down cuz it did not look nice. Don't mind me, I will just be over here pulling my hair out!!!
    In all fairness to gun makers ,they aren't selling to gun forum members . Most shooters I see at my range use the cup and saucer grip--which is exactly what that texture would be good for. It is easy to forget on forums like this that most gun owners don't know fundamental shooting form, and they're the ones who buy the product.
    The Minority Marksman.
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  10. #60
    Member stimpee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    Why, please tell me why!?!?! Why does it seem like every manufacturer will not texture the places on handguns that need texture?!?!?!? I mean WTF, here we have a brand new gun, and the sides are slick as they can be. Have any of these engineers (and I am not talking about Springfield here, all of the manufactures are included here) ever fired a handgun? That area that says "Grip Zone" should be covered up with texture all the way to the slide stop!!!

    But then I talked to the guy at Beretta that wanted to make the side of the PX4 like nonskid tape and got shot down cuz it did not look nice. Don't mind me, I will just be over here pulling my hair out!!!
    Becausa, it musta looka nice-a!!!!

    They know best.

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