P320 and training classes

[GardoneVT]

That is true and is one of the counterarguments in this debacle. My personal take on that is a bit different. In 100 years of those non drop safe guns we have heard of them going off when dropped, even with very lethal outcomes, but not in any alarming rates despite a very large number of those guns in circulation. The 320 has been on the market only for three-four years and according to SIG's admission, there were 4 discharges in last year alone. Whatever SIG's apologists say about rarity of this event (500,000 guns sold etc), it actually may represent a significant rate of drop discharges. From a statistical analysis standpoint, the denominator should be a number of 320 dropped in a year, we don't have it but we should presume that dropping guns is not that common. The numerator is 4 but we actually don't know that either; it may be higher (underreporting bias) but it is unlikely to be less. That drop discharge rate could be actually in 1-4% rate, for all I know.

It is distinctly possible that 320 in its current form is no less safe that a series 70 1911 but there is a possibility that it isn't. Regardless, the latest in a firearm design should be clearly safer that a 100 year old design yet there are doubts, as there are doubts that it is safer than 30 year Glock design with millions in circulation and barely any reports of drop discharges.

In regards to the culpability and litigation, I am nearly speechless that SIG has chosen to "hide" behind the ANSI testing standards vs real life occurrences. In my line of work post-release device safety failures have costed manufacturers huge settlements even if devices had passed all safety standards during the development and received independent pre-release approvals. Based on these precedents, I believe that SIG will get their ass handed out to them in courts with their ANSI and NIJ standards if somebody gets injured with their "safe as is" 320. The instructors and match organizers may or may not be found negligent, depending on the case, but they will be sucked into the litigation. SIG calling it a voluntary upgrade is both a character flaw and a mistake. I am not an attorney but, having been detailed in numerous device safety recalls, I would advice trainers, ranges and match organizers to distance themselves from 320s (and any gun that is acknowledged to be unsafe in any way by its manufacturer) until a proven fix is implemented.

The damning part is that Sig basically admitted awareness of the problem long enough ago to have engineered a planned change of the trigger components,and already built those changes into the military contract pistol. Without informing Joe Consumer or its LE customers.

Had Omaha Outdoors not made this video it is probable this issue would never have been resolved for Consumer users of the P320. Which leads to the uncomfortable question of just what other ticking bomb problems lie in Sig Sauer's product lineup which they've similarly failed to disclose.

[JHC]

As far as I understand, the grip safety would prevent the trigger moving rearward if dropped muzzle up. If a 1911 sans FPB were to discharge when dropped it would be muzzle down, much less likely to hurt someone. The alarming thing about the P320 is that it can (and appears likely to) fire muzzle up.

Yeah, muzzle down and barrel perpendicular to the ground is hardly comparable.

[lordhamster]

Yeah, muzzle down and barrel perpendicular to the ground is hardly comparable.

Agree 100%. I'll take it a step further, I feel like the "well what about 1911s" argument is being used deliberately as a red herring to distract from the issue at hand.

[Bucky]

Agree 100%. I'll take it a step further, I feel like the "well what about 1911s" argument is being used deliberately as a red herring to distract from the issue at hand.

I'm sure a lot of older 1911s or gamer 1911s aren't exactly drop safe, but more modern offerings that aren't mucked with seem to do OK. With the Omaha guns followup video, he drops a Springfield TRP Operator 1911 (no FPS) a few different ways, including on its muzzle, and it doesn't go off.

[David S.]

Agree 100%. I'll take it a step further, I feel like the "well what about 1911s" argument is being used deliberately as a red herring to distract from the issue at hand.

IMO, with regards to SIG fixing the issue, or individuals sending their gun in for their "voluntary fix," I totally agree with you. There is a known problem that needs to be fixed, and equivocating on this is irresponsible and dangerous.

OTOH, "what about the XXX" does add perspective to the particular discussions of P320 in competition and classes. If you* have attended any formal class or competition, you've either accepted the risk of being around guns that were less drop-safe than the P320, or ignorant** of this reality.

* "you" in general sense, not "you" personally.
** not in the derogatory sense.

[archangel]

The damning part is that Sig basically admitted awareness of the problem long enough ago to have engineered a planned change of the trigger components,and already built those changes into the military contract pistol.

That was not my take. My understanding was that they re-engineered certain parts to address other specific issues (like the trigger double click), and while they were at it, went ahead and lightened the parts to increase their drop safety margins. The new parts happened to mitigate the -30 drop issue, but were not specifically designed for that purpose, because they didn't know about it yet. They may have suspected something, due to the 4 reported issues, but I don't think they had found the specific vulnerability yet.

That was my thinking anyway. Maybe I'm naive.

[GardoneVT]

That was not my take. My understanding was that they re-engineered certain parts to address other specific issues (like the trigger double click), and while they were at it, went ahead and lightened the parts to increase their drop safety margins. The new parts happened to mitigate the -30 drop issue, but were not specifically designed for that purpose, because they didn't know about it yet. They may have suspected something, due to the 4 reported issues, but I don't think they had found the specific vulnerability yet.

That was my thinking anyway. Maybe I'm naive.

One of the Sig reps mentioned that an unnamed LE customer informed Sig of the potential drop safe problem,resulting in them beginning the "model upgrade" project. They then justified the upgrade as fixing other concerns such as the "double click" , which sounds from my chair like ex post facto reasoning. If it were truly a planned service upgrade separate from the drop safe issue, why did the XM17 already get the "model upgrade" parts ?

[Drang]

Because they wanted to only be manufacturing a single set of components.

[Mr_White]

If a 1911 sans FPB were to discharge when dropped it would be muzzle down, much less likely to hurt someone. The alarming thing about the P320 is that it can (and appears likely to) fire muzzle up.

Yeah, muzzle down and barrel perpendicular to the ground is hardly comparable.

^^^^ Precisely the reason I chose to say no unfixed 320s.

[Francis]

If you* have attended any formal class or competition, you've either accepted the risk of being around guns that were less drop-safe than the P320, or ignorant** of this reality.

* "you" in general sense, not "you" personally.
** not in the derogatory sense.

This is where I was at. I'm fairly new to all this and was not aware of drop safety issues until I started reading about the P320.

I ended up going to the class today. Frankly, I was surprised it wasn't mentioned during the safety briefing. Best I could tell there were no Sigs there and no guns were dropped.