Semi-Auto Triggers: market trends, choices, and consequences

[Clusterfrack]

Note: I'm not making any points about drop safety. I was providing data for the DA/SA vs. striker discussion.

[TheNewbie]

Yes I know this has been discussed before but...

Does adding an NY1 or NY2 trigger actually do anything to help prevent NDs? Besides NYPD do any major agencies issue these?

[blues]

Yes I know this has been discussed before but...

Does adding an NY1 or NY2 trigger actually do anything to help prevent NDs? Besides NYPD do any major agencies issue these?

They were mandatory for our issued and personally carried (off-duty) weapons for U.S. Customs SAC/Miami from sometime in the mid 90's until I retired. I don't have a clue if it changed the day after I left or not. I still have one in my G26 but I believe Glock replaced my old trigger on my G19 when they upgraded my frame from Gen 2 to Gen 3 under warranty recently.

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes I know this has been discussed before but...

Does adding an NY1 or NY2 trigger actually do anything to help prevent NDs? Besides NYPD do any major agencies issue these?

We used to, but stopped once we went to Gen 3.

The unintended discharges I'm aware of have been from pulling the trigger to break down the Glock without properly clearing it or obstructed holster/foreign item in holster. Obviously trigger weight is irrelevant in the first kind, they meant to pull the trigger. In the second kind, pretty unlikely the force was within the Goldilocks zone to trip one trigger weight but not another. Still very little tactile feedback.

[Jared]

I agree with a lot of the points being made about the quest for a 1911 trigger on a plastic gun with no manual safety helping to lead us here.

However, I do not think that that is all that went wrong at SIG. Ron Cohen, and the corporate culture he more likely than not has fostered at SIG undoubtedly played a significant role. And I'm saying that because we have one of these king cost cutters at any cost in my professional life, so I know how they operate and the effects they have on the rest of the culture. Our guy isn't even in charge of the entire company, just one division in one factory and it's maddening enough. So I can only imagine what going on internally at Sig.

The buyers demand lighter triggers, and the manufacturers work to give them what they want, that's undisputable. But it's awfully interesting to me that when it hit the fan, someone like Cohen was at the helm.

[Clusterfrack]

And, the p320 does not have a light, or short trigger. 7 pounds, 0.4" travel.

[Trooper224]

Ernest gets the internet win for the day.


As for myself, when I retire in less than two years I'll most likely never shoot a striker fired gun again much less own one.

[GJM]

If people just listed in their signature line, what they carried, it could probably save us all a lot of time reading all these paragraphs.

Kidding aside, the discussion of topics like this is core to what we do well at Pistol-Forum. Plus, it gives us something to occupy ourselves with while we wait to see what engineering marvel Sig introduces on Monday.

[Trooper224]

If people just listed in their signature line, what they carried, it could probably save us all a lot of time reading all these paragraphs.

True, but as often as you seem to change, would there be enough room for your list?

Funny thing is, I remember standing on the range just a few weeks ago, during our new sidearm selection, and being very impressed with the shooting qualities of the P320. I also remember saying, "I like it, but I think the Glock is the wiser choice since we don't know if there are any problems that will surface with the 320, given its new design." Hmmm...........

In spite of all this, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the glass palace picks the 320. Their egos won't accept and they can't abide being told they're wrong.

[LangdonTactical]

Not only has this thread gone off the rails but what you said and Ernest said are actually many different unrelated things.

Sig screwing up it's engineering and making an unsafe gun has nothing to do with it being a striker fired weapon. We've had screwed up engineering on all weapon systems.

A Striker fired weapon can be made with too light of a trigger. But so is every DA/SA pistol I've shot. Anecdotal, I've seen it and scientific experiments over the years have proved that when "Ascared", transference of force between limbs, etc there is enough pressure put on the DA to make it go bang.

If a trigger on a pistol that is too light shouldn't be made and we are all human and do stupid things, we must by that logic get rid of the DA/SA. That holstered DA/SA in SA that we forgot to decock because we're human is an error waiting to happen. It is far more dangerous because it's lighter and shorter than any production pistol I've fired.

This is an example of Marketing. Marketing does not equal truth...

Well, I am not sure I can fully agree with you there. First of all, yes, the manufacturer does share a lot of the blame and they need to own that. Maybe they will, that is to be seen.

Second, the distance of the trigger pull is what keeps you out of trouble, not the weight. The scientific studies are discussing what I believe is called "sympathetic bilateral pull", meaning when one hand grips the other hand grips also, and if your finger is on the trigger you are likely to have an AD/ND. In this case, you can make a short trigger weight 25 lbs and people will still have issues if they are running around with their finger on the trigger. And people run around with their finger on the trigger all the time when they should not. Agencies that carry DA/SA guns and switch to striker fired guns normally have an increase in accidental discharges as well as unintended shootings. I am not talking about "mistake of fact" shootings, meaning I meant to shoot, and shot on purpose, but find out later it was not a gun in his hand and should not have shot (for example). Even in that case, I personally know several police officers that have pulled their Beretta to half cock before realizing they did not need to shoot. They are all happy they were carrying a DA gun.

I went to FBI instructor School in I believe 1995, before they switched to the Glock. And they were preaching those scientific test back then as well. But at the time it was weight and distance of the trigger pull. At that time they were defending using the 228 as their main gun. Later they used the same test to avoid going to a New York trigger, because of the Scientific test stating that an adult male could pull a 25 lb trigger with a "bilateral sympathetic pull". So the 11 or 12 pound NY trigger would not help prevent accidents. I was shown those studies back then, more than 20 years ago, but somehow the distance of the trigger pull part has been lost and no one that I talk to seems to be able to find the full study anymore. I really wish I could find the full study now, and not just the references to what it says. If you have the full study, I would love to see it again.

As to holstering a DA/SA gun when it is cocked, that is really not much different than holstering many of the Striker fired guns on the market. So I am not understanding your point here from a safety stand point. Also, if we can train people to put ARs back on safe, why is it so hard to teach them to de-cock the gun before they holster. I really don't think that it is that hard, and it really should not be an issue.

The point is, we seem to think we can train people well enough to keep their finger straight under stress, but we cannot train people to de-cock before they holster or when they stop shooting.

I hear what you are saying, but if DA/SA guns are unsafe, we are in big trouble.