An interesting discussion would be are there significant enough differences in various brand striker pistols, to make some more or less acceptable for carry, or are all strikers "bad" for EDC.
The issue of this thread, however, is that Sig designed the 320 and marketed it as drop safe, and it isn't. The complaint with the 320 is not that someone got their finger on the too light bugger switch, but rather the 320 makes loud noises with no finger on the trigger.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Originally Posted by LangdonTactical
I hear what you're saying and agree somewhat. The problem with the balance needed by the industry or just, "us" is that we don't really want a balance. We pick what we think that balance is and then argue for that system(marketing). Sometimes what we think will help doesn't help at all. Sometimes it just gives us a false sense of security. Sometimes it makes it worse.
No one ever seems to want to talk about the, "Why". When we take this down to the geek level what we end up with is people making pistols harder to shoot and feeling that they are more safe. Often they are not. This is the flip side of making the pistol easier to shoot as you allude to. It's as though we forget the mistakes of yesteryear with very similar systems. Is there a sweet spot for trigger? Absolutely. There is a range of products that fit that. But that must be looked at with the amount of training available, how we train, etc.
So can we make a trigger that is too light? Absolutely. Can we make a trigger that is too hard? Absolutely. The industry is flawed by two main problems, "Marketing" and, "The law of unintended consequences". We forget that last one to our own detriment.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
Not only has this thread gone off the rails but what you said and Ernest said are actually many different unrelated things.
Sig screwing up it's engineering and making an unsafe gun has nothing to do with it being a striker fired weapon. We've had screwed up engineering on all weapon systems.
A Striker fired weapon can be made with too light of a trigger. But so is every DA/SA pistol I've shot. Anecdotal, I've seen it and scientific experiments over the years have proved that when "Ascared", transference of force between limbs, etc there is enough pressure put on the DA to make it go bang.
If a trigger on a pistol that is too light shouldn't be made and we are all human and do stupid things, we must by that logic get rid of the DA/SA. That holstered DA/SA in SA that we forgot to decock because we're human is an error waiting to happen. It is far more dangerous because it's lighter and shorter than any production pistol I've fired.
This is an example of Marketing. Marketing does not equal truth...
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
Hell, even if we were we are still human and still not infallible. Especially when we're already sleep deprived then get an adrenaline dump, etc. Anyone can drop a gun, brush a trigger, have an obstructed holster, etc.
The VP9 trigger was the first one that actually scared me. I've never live fired one, just a couple dry fires at the LGS was enough for me.
I do not see the pressure to shoot a striker-fired pistol, but I do see the competition to sell striker-fired pistols. And it, as you noted, is not so much striker-fired as it is "inexpensive" and "smaller". People would purchase a cheap hammer-fired gun since the vast majority of guns are bought, not shot. After all, S&W still sells a ton of J-frame "hammer-less" (concealed hammer) revolvers.
I do think it is fair to place some of the blame on the manufacturers as some, including SIG, sell striker-fired guns as safe. SIG even took a shot at Glock with "drop safe" without the trigger tab. If the customers cannot determine what is best to purchase, the manufacturers have to lead the charge. Part of that is advertising and part of that is offering options. I still do not understand how the VP9 is $200 less than the P30.
Go back, read what I have wrote on trigger systems, particularly regarding striker pistols which I have carried extensively, and then take my statement in context to that. Just google "Why I like the LEM". The part about handing out guns with extremely "easy to shoot" triggers like candy would be the context.
Last edited by Dagga Boy; 08-11-2017 at 12:52 PM.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Yeah, I had a VP9 for a short spell a while ago... I agree 100% on the trigger. Great gaming gun, not even remotely close to something I'd feel comfortable carrying on me. It feels like a strong wind could set a round off, despite the pull weight being about 5-6 lbs.
I think you are correct. But isn't that true of all handgun systems? As a new officer I carried a HK USP 40 that would drop the magazine at the slightest bump. They replaced the parts but not the pistol. From day one to the last day it would drop the mags. At least once a day on patrol the magazine would be in the seat or loose in the pistol but not seated. What makes this problem unique to striker fired? Right now, media. Strikers are all the rage. If we were to switch the entire world back to DA/SA or revolvers we would soon be having the same conversation about them.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
If you go back and read what you wrote you will remember it was I that was right there in the conversation disagreeing with you. Context or not what you guys are saying makes no logical sense. One thing does not equal the other.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
Ernest's and Dagga Boy's points, are, as usual, cogent and spot on, in my opinion. While I'm PERSONALLY comfortable with my Glocks to feel safe in carry useage, for a duty/threat management handgun my preferences have moved over to HK's LEM (in my case, a P30L V1) and DAO (in my case, with my Beretta 92D with liberal doses of Wilson Combat hardware to improve and lighten the triggerpull).
I see distinct advantages for threat management use in an action that requires some distance with the triggerpull prior to ignition, as well as in an action that does not require any decocking or safeing, other than removing my finger from the trigger and holstering.
Dagga Boy's article on the LEM does a very succinct job in the pros and cons inherent to the various action types.
And, as we've discussed here in a previous thread, I too have some residual concerns over the perceptual lightness/soft trigger break of the HK VPs, although otherwise the VPs have some highly commendable features.
Bottom line: As Ernest points out, we have to weigh "shootabality" and "threat management" characteristics in a gun/platform dependent upon likely use, shooter skill proficiency, and venue. The default choice should likely be the safest.
Best, Jon
