Semi-Auto Triggers: market trends, choices, and consequences

[OlongJohnson]

So, someone with more knowledge please school me. Obviously, discharging muzzle up is double-ungood.

Is a Series 70 essentially unlikely to do that if dropped? Does the firing pin spring reasonably eliminate the chance of a bounce back if it lands muzzle-up? I've read of an AR-pattern rifle making the loud noise when hitting the deck muzzle up (rare but possible), but that's a free floating pin.

I imagine the modified-Glock scenario is a case by case basis, depending on the details of the mods and failure.

[Xrslug]

This is where the disagreement is. You think that you need to forget to decock to have the DA go off when holstering. I've experiment with my holstering and more importantly others who didn't know what I was doing. They holstered the pistol hard enough to make the Sig and HK both DA go click. We also know this because plenty of people have actually had AD this way in real life. And that is where the false confidence of using a DA over a striker comes from.

I don't think that you have to forget to decock an DA/SA to enable a negligent discharge while holstering, I have no doubt an ND can happen in DA mode if you holster it hard enough without your thumb on the hammer -- my point is that in order to be on par with a striker fired gun you would need to forget to decock it (and not have your thumb on the hammer). If you decock it, you have a longer and heavier trigger pull (as compared to striker fired guns), as well as a hammer that will tell you the trigger is moving unintentionally. So there are more mechanical "hurdles" to overcome before the same screwup (in my hypothetical, a jacket drawstring pulling on the trigger) will result in an ND. Unless I'm misinterpreting your position, your premise seems to be that it is equally easy to have an ND with any trigger system and I don't agree with that. I do agree with you that ideally you should be switched on to the same degree regardless of what you're shooting and not have a false sense of security regardless of SA, SA/DA, striker, etc. But we're not robots and some systems are more forgiving of screwups than others.

[Xrslug]

So, someone with more knowledge please school me. Obviously, discharging muzzle up is double-ungood.

Is a Series 70 essentially unlikely to do that if dropped? Does the firing pin spring reasonably eliminate the chance of a bounce back if it lands muzzle-up? I've read of an AR-pattern rifle making the loud noise when hitting the deck muzzle up (rare but possible), but that's a free floating pin.

I imagine the modified-Glock scenario is a case by case basis, depending on the details of the mods and failure.

FWIW 1911's without firing pin blocks pass California's drop tests using titanium firing pins. I haven't looked at the CA test in detail but it involves dropping the guns from a fixture onto concrete from a height of ~40 inches such that they impact at different angles (muzzle down, muzzle up, etc.). Just looking at the design of a 1911, with a spring holding the FP back against the firing pin stop, if a muzzle down impact doesn't cause ignition, it seems very unlikely that a drop on the rear of the slide would allow the FP to push forward and hit the primer. Caveat, my physics is high school level.

[BJJ]

For "real world use", which DA/SA proponent is running a 5/2 trigger?

http://www.defensereview.com/cz-p-07...y-knows-about/

"• Double action- 6.75 lbs.
• Single action- 3. 28 "

I was slightly off about the weights. I still don't understand how, other than the hammer to thumb check, that's any safer than a Glock or how an ND that would have happened with Glock would be avoided by that set up.

[GardoneVT]

Who controls the cultural hegemony in the firearms community?

How many firearms instructors carry and shoot completely stock guns? Because they don't want to set a bad example as subject matter experts about turning safe firearms into unsafe firearms.

A gun "modified" on a kitchen table with a Dremel isn't in the same parsec of quality or safety as a pistol properly modified by a professional.

I can speak to this point, seeing as I just sent an M9A1 victimized by someones Dremel to Wilson Combat. Guess which type of modifications youll see at a local match versus what will be done to a professional shooter's gun? Lets put the notion of "Sig P320 stock pistol factory defect = comp shooters deliberately modifying gamer guns" to rest here and now.

I think the striker vs DA/SA discussion is a moot point, because in The Real World regular people don't carry DA/SA pistols anymore. Only 5% of Americans are estimated to carry any pistol on their person consistently, and among those folks some are carrying C3 in a jacket holster with a draw so slow it could be timed by tree rings.

The issue isn't the trigger system, but consumer preference for lighter triggers because they're not trained to shoot heavier ones well. Not that long ago DA/SA pistols were the standard pistol in LE holsters, and the 1990's and 1980's arent known for being the Dark Ages of Handgun Accuracy on account of that trigger system. Before that was the Age of the Double Action Revolver. Hell, go back far enough and the semi automatic handgun was considered a poor substitute for a high caliber revolver, which every man knew was the only proper pistol to carry.

So the notion that DA/SA is an accuracy handicap is bullshit. But get out among the gun proletariats, and its like anything with a 3.5lb + trigger is considered an unshootable hunk of junk.Which is what happens when someone with 0 skill shoots a stock pistol of any normal trigger weight, because when you don't have proper technique your target looks like crap.

Do these folks think "shucks I suck, best take a class and get some training? " Hell no. They run to Apex.com and order the lightest drop in trigger the company makes. Suddenly they hit the target better , and then the psychological connection is made. If 3.5lbs is good, wouldn't .05lbs be much better?

Sure the trigger might go off if you sneeze on it, and the gun might also go full-auto from all the metal removed from the trigger parts, but "keep your finger off the trigger" cures all ND ills. Its easier and more macho to just make the trigger lighter then to learn how to shoot properly.

Thus we come to all the cyclic discussion here. Proper training allows one to run any trigger system safely and reasonably well. Its when novice shooters buy guns and monkey with the triggers with no practical skill and paper over the risk with stock phrases that we run into issues. And then Sig makes a defective pistol that may fire when dropped, making the risk calculation even worse.

[Doc_Glock]

Since we are all jumping in:

I feel mechanical drop safety is an absolute requirement in a pistol design. The pistol should not go off unless the trigger is pressed and the trigger should not be able to be pressed by inertia. This is possible with many different designs.

TDA or lightish striker fire? Dunno. I am not convinced either is particularly safer from a people management perspective.

Humans are amazingly good at knowing when a gun will "go off" with any sort of training. Heavy, long trigger or light and short, they all "train" their users.

Surely I am a Glock guy learning TDA right now. What this means is I am getting on the trigger much earlier and more aggressively from the draw than I do with a Glock, if I want to release that shot when the sights settle. I can see how this type of trigger work would be detrimental to an individual trained only on TDA who suddenly converts to Glocks and doesn't put in the work to retrain that digit.

Either way, it is rare that I will fire a gun that I have more than passing familiarity with before I want to. It has happened with extremely light triggers, but that self corrects within a magazine's worth of shooting.

Blaming our desire for simple, kind of light, consistent trigger feel as the cause of Sig's abysmal failure of engineering is confusing two completely separate issues IMO. Posted with all due respect.

[spinmove_]

I don't think that you have to forget to decock an DA/SA to enable a negligent discharge while holstering, I have no doubt an ND can happen in DA mode if you holster it hard enough without your thumb on the hammer -- my point is that in order to be on par with a striker fired gun you would need to forget to decock it (and not have your thumb on the hammer). If you decock it, you have a longer and heavier trigger pull (as compared to striker fired guns), as well as a hammer that will tell you the trigger is moving unintentionally. So there are more mechanical "hurdles" to overcome before the same screwup (in my hypothetical, a jacket drawstring pulling on the trigger) will result in an ND. Unless I'm misinterpreting your position, your premise seems to be that it is equally easy to have an ND with any trigger system and I don't agree with that. I do agree with you that ideally you should be switched on to the same degree regardless of what you're shooting and not have a false sense of security regardless of SA, SA/DA, striker, etc. But we're not robots and some systems are more forgiving of screwups than others.

This is how I see the issue essentially. The TDA pistol isn't necessarily MORE or LESS safe than a SFA or manual safety pistol, it just gives you more opportunities to correct your potential mistake before you actually make it.

If you're running a TDA pistol properly, you're decocking the pistol after you're done firing, checking your holster before reholstering, thumbing the hammer as you're reholstering, and being cognizant of anything that's "off" during that process. With a SFA, you generally don't get to thumb the hammer or decock, so there's two layers you're giving up. Manual safety pistol may or may not allow you to thumb the hammer, but you should be putting it on safe when you'd decock the TDA.

Now if you're a complete dunderhead as far as firearm safety goes or you make A LOT of errors all in sequence, then none of all that above really makes any difference. Everything comes with a trade off and there's no free lunch. I don't care what your poison is, just know how to manage that poison without affecting others or yourself.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[BehindBlueI's]

I still don't understand how, other than the hammer to thumb check, that's any safer than a Glock or how an ND that would have happened with Glock would be avoided by that set up.

Me either. I have shot a magazine through one and did not care for it.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the P22X, Beretta 92, etc. CZ really isn't on my radar.

[PNWTO]

Innovation improves the breed. I think we should ask for improvements and the manufacturers should seek to provide improvements. I do not buy the apparent theme that striker is unsafe and TDA is safe. I saw way too many 9mm holes in clearing barrels with TDA pistols to accept their superiority.

Having watched a few clearing barrels get killed I would say the fault is in general education of the manual of arms. IME, on a base where Condition 3 pistols were allowed, the following happened:

1. Servicemember, usually an officer (sorry not sorry #truth), would draw their C3 M9.

2. Servicemember would do a hasty visual chamber check while racking the slide.

3. Servicemember would then drop the magazine.

4. Servicemember would then present the muzzle into the barrel and drop the hammer.

5. Bang.

[Wondering Beard]

OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault! [...] We have developed [...] But here we are [...] and we thought it was great [...] And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" [...] At what point will we accept the fact [...]

What do you mean we, kemosabe? ;-)

Ok, I selectively edited your post to razz you some but putting the humor aside, I'm not sure who this "we" is and what sort of people are part of it. As Rob_s points out, the majority of people who buy guns are not only unconcerned by what is being discussed here, they are for the most part totally ignorant of the salient points of this discussion; that does make them very vulnerable to be sold a bunch of idiocy but that does not make them the type of pressure group that would push gun companies to produce pistols with "1911 triggers and no safeties".

As I see it, gun companies, like any other company, wants market share and need to beat the guy with the most market share; in this case, that means Glock. So SIG, S&W, HK, Beretta etc... went all in to find a Glock beater, and more specifically to make a trigger that is better than Glock's (it's hard to be truly innovative with a plastic, striker fired pistol). That may not be the right approach to producing a better safer gun but that's the approach they took; moreover, that approach didn't need to push SIG to make an unsafe pistol (Glock didn't bow to the pressure you're talking about and it is far from an innocent pure good guy company), that's all on SIG. So I would disagree that "we", the "gun community" (not a homogeneous group) pushed for this to happen.

With that said, I am reading, with great interest, the discussion on what trigger system works best, or more likely better, on the continuum of safety and its intersection with shootability. I find DB's comments particularly germane and important and thus would like to add my own small experience to this. When I tried to become good with TDA guns (I never really got there but that's on me not the guns), I found out that not only did I need to get on the trigger earlier than on my Glocks and 1911s (sort of what Ernest shows in his videos) but also needed to start applying pressure on the trigger definitely earlier. Frankly, that made me uncomfortable and when I would shoot Glocks or 1911s after shooting a TDA pistol (back then a P220 with the spur hammer), I would end up firing my shots way earlier than I wanted to. With my Glocks and 1911s, my index finger might find itself a bit early inside the trigger guard sometimes but no pressure on the trigger would be applied until I had made the decision to shoot; something that worked nicely in a few blind scenarios at the NTI or Tom Givens' Tac Conference. I am by no means an expert shooter and I have nowhere near the experience of Ernest or DB or many others here, so it's quite possible that I may have been doing things wrong, but I jut don't like getting on the trigger with pressure early, unless I dedicated myself to only that trigger system and nothing else.