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Thread: Semi-Auto Triggers: market trends, choices, and consequences

  1. #1

    Semi-Auto Triggers: market trends, choices, and consequences

    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    The race has been on to see which manufacturer could build a gun with the shortest and lightest trigger on a striker fired gun for years. Between the aftermarket kits for striker fired guns to the updates to current guns from major manufacturers and new guns hitting the market, it is pretty clear that the customers want as close to a 1911 trigger as they can get, but with no manual safety. The whole culture has gone to the bullshit bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" mentality. We have developed an acceptance for basically single action guns with no safeties. I have been around long enough to remember when a certain striker fired gun hit the market and most of the top guys in the community thought it was ridiculous to have a trigger that short and light with no safety. But here we are, about 30 years later and all anyone wants is a short light trigger on a striker fired a gun. Not to mention all the people that complain about the trigger tab.

    When the 320 hit the market, everyone was raving about how great the trigger was and the fact that it did not have a trigger tab. Here we have a fully cocked gun, with no external safety of any kind, and we thought it was great. Sales went through the roof and almost nobody said, hey wait a minute, physics are at play here, what kind of weird magic are they using to keep that thing from firing when it hits the ground. Every other manufacturer that builds a striker fired gun has some kind of trigger tab that keeps the gun from firing when it gets dropped. And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude".

    At what point will we accept the fact that we are all not Tier One Operators and these things are threat management tools, not just toys we use at the range. If you're so damn good that you never make mistakes and you can use a 1911 with no safeties, then learn how to shoot a gun that sets an example for the rest of us mear mortals.

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    Last edited by LangdonTactical; 08-11-2017 at 09:44 AM.
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  2. #2
    Bingo Ernest! Everyone wants "easy to shoot". SIG/Grayguns/Internet are on the "just has to pass a couple tests and we are good". The new mantra is "booger picker off bang switch and I don't drop my guns". Got it. Well now you got so easy to shoot it will do this:
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    Last edited by Dagga Boy; 08-11-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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  3. #3
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    DB "people management trigger" post he made many moons ago is something I continue to take to heart, and preach to people whenever possible.

    eta: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot
    because people are lazy for searching.
    (ok, he called it a "street trigger". sue me.)
    Last edited by hufnagel; 08-11-2017 at 09:55 AM.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
    TDA: Learn it. Live it. Love it.... Read these: People Management Triggers 1, 2, 3
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    The race has been on to see which manufacturer could build a gun with the shortest and lightest trigger on a striker fired gun for years. Between the aftermarket kits for striker fired guns to the updates to current guns from major manufacturers and new guns hitting the market, it is pretty clear that the customers want as close to a 1911 trigger as they can get, but with no manual safety. The whole culture has gone to the bullshit bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" mentality. We have developed an acceptance for basically single action guns with no safeties. I have been around long enough to remember when a certain striker fired gun hit the market and most of the top guys in the community thought it was ridiculous to have a trigger that short and light with no safety. But here we are, about 30 years later and all anyone wants is a short light trigger on a striker fired a gun. Not to mention all the people that complain about the trigger tab.

    When the 320 hit the market, everyone was raving about how great the trigger was and the fact that it did not have a trigger tab. Here we have a fully cocked gun, with no external safety of any kind, and we thought it was great. Sales went through the roof and almost nobody said, hey wait a minute, physics are at play here, what kind of weird magic are they using to keep that thing from firing when it hits the ground. Every other manufacturer that builds a striker fired gun has some kind of trigger tab that keeps the gun from firing when it gets dropped. And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude".

    At what point will we accept the fact that we are all not Tier One Operators and these things are threat management tools, not just toys we use at the range. If you're so damn good that you never make mistakes and you can use a 1911 with no safeties, then learn how to shoot a gun that sets an example for the rest of us mear mortals.

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    Word!
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    The race has been on to see which manufacturer could build a gun with the shortest and lightest trigger on a striker fired gun for years. Between the aftermarket kits for striker fired guns to the updates to current guns from major manufacturers and new guns hitting the market, it is pretty clear that the customers want as close to a 1911 trigger as they can get, but with no manual safety. The whole culture has gone to the bullshit bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" mentality. We have developed an acceptance for basically single action guns with no safeties. I have been around long enough to remember when a certain striker fired gun hit the market and most of the top guys in the community thought it was ridiculous to have a trigger that short and light with no safety. But here we are, about 30 years later and all anyone wants is a short light trigger on a striker fired a gun. Not to mention all the people that complain about the trigger tab.

    When the 320 hit the market, everyone was raving about how great the trigger was and the fact that it did not have a trigger tab. Here we have a fully cocked gun, with no external safety of any kind, and we thought it was great. Sales went through the roof and almost nobody said, hey wait a minute, physics are at play here, what kind of weird magic are they using to keep that thing from firing when it hits the ground. Every other manufacturer that builds a striker fired gun has some kind of trigger tab that keeps the gun from firing when it gets dropped. And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude".

    At what point will we accept the fact that we are all not Tier One Operators and these things are threat management tools, not just toys we use at the range. If you're so damn good that you never make mistakes and you can use a 1911 with no safeties, then learn how to shoot a gun that sets an example for the rest of us mear mortals.

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    This is the exact chain of reasoning I was following when switching to a CZ P-07 for AIWB carry. Adrenaline dump is a mother, and I know I can get clumsy under stress. Does't hurt that the CZ came out of the box needing few if any modifications.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    SNIP

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    I made a similar comment in the "non P320 drop safe" thread, regarding drop failures of a GLOCK with an aftermarket trigger. The constant search to get smoother/lighter/shorter triggers has brought us to this point.

    I still feel comfortable and confident in my (completely stock) GLOCK triggers as a duty/SD/HD trigger. But there's a reason I've been dabbling with the P07 for a while now.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    The race has been on to see which manufacturer could build a gun with the shortest and lightest trigger on a striker fired gun for years. Between the aftermarket kits for striker fired guns to the updates to current guns from major manufacturers and new guns hitting the market, it is pretty clear that the customers want as close to a 1911 trigger as they can get, but with no manual safety. The whole culture has gone to the bullshit bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" mentality. We have developed an acceptance for basically single action guns with no safeties. I have been around long enough to remember when a certain striker fired gun hit the market and most of the top guys in the community thought it was ridiculous to have a trigger that short and light with no safety. But here we are, about 30 years later and all anyone wants is a short light trigger on a striker fired a gun. Not to mention all the people that complain about the trigger tab.

    When the 320 hit the market, everyone was raving about how great the trigger was and the fact that it did not have a trigger tab. Here we have a fully cocked gun, with no external safety of any kind, and we thought it was great. Sales went through the roof and almost nobody said, hey wait a minute, physics are at play here, what kind of weird magic are they using to keep that thing from firing when it hits the ground. Every other manufacturer that builds a striker fired gun has some kind of trigger tab that keeps the gun from firing when it gets dropped. And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude".

    At what point will we accept the fact that we are all not Tier One Operators and these things are threat management tools, not just toys we use at the range. If you're so damn good that you never make mistakes and you can use a 1911 with no safeties, then learn how to shoot a gun that sets an example for the rest of us mear mortals.

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    So much this. Well said. I'm so sick and tired of people wanting everything dumbed down to the point where they don't have to use any brain power whatsoever or don't have to exert the time and energy necessary to even gain a remedial level of proficiency with anything, let alone firearms. If you can't handle learning the proper manual of arms for a specific gun or any guns, then don't use guns. Safety is a thing and putting people's lives at risk because you expect an end user to perform every single task perfectly every single time is a misguided fallacy that will show you how wrong you are at every single turn. Flippy switches, levers, dinguses, and weird hinges on guns doesn't make them unnecessarily complex, it's makes your dumb Neanderthal stressed out self less likely to inadvertently and unintentionally perforate either yourself or someone else.

    Want a 1911 trigger? Use a 1911. Don't like safeties? Use a TDA. Don't like two different trigger presses on the same gun? Use a striker gun or a revolver. Whatever you use, just use something that's safe and of good quality? You think whatever safety mechanism that's in place is holding you back for whatever reason? Maybe you should look at the possibility that you are holding you back. I know I've caught myself holding myself back before. It happens. I'm human. I make mistakes. It's what I'm good at. Maybe you should think of yourself as human too instead of the perfect machine that never fails that you think you are.


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Bingo Ernest! Everyone wants "easy to shoot". SIG/Grayguns/Internet are on the "just has to pass a couple tests and we are good". The new mantra is "booger picker off bang switch and I don't drop my guns". Got it. Well now you got so easy to shoot it will do this:
    Can't agree more. The more I think about this subject the more I'm grateful that there's such a thing as the SCD (thanks, Tom). The more I think about the SCD, the more I think about just switching back to a TDA. That Px4c just keeps looking better and better by the day.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    The race has been on to see which manufacturer could build a gun with the shortest and lightest trigger on a striker fired gun for years. Between the aftermarket kits for striker fired guns to the updates to current guns from major manufacturers and new guns hitting the market, it is pretty clear that the customers want as close to a 1911 trigger as they can get, but with no manual safety. The whole culture has gone to the bullshit bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" mentality. We have developed an acceptance for basically single action guns with no safeties. I have been around long enough to remember when a certain striker fired gun hit the market and most of the top guys in the community thought it was ridiculous to have a trigger that short and light with no safety. But here we are, about 30 years later and all anyone wants is a short light trigger on a striker fired a gun. Not to mention all the people that complain about the trigger tab.

    When the 320 hit the market, everyone was raving about how great the trigger was and the fact that it did not have a trigger tab. Here we have a fully cocked gun, with no external safety of any kind, and we thought it was great. Sales went through the roof and almost nobody said, hey wait a minute, physics are at play here, what kind of weird magic are they using to keep that thing from firing when it hits the ground. Every other manufacturer that builds a striker fired gun has some kind of trigger tab that keeps the gun from firing when it gets dropped. And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude".

    At what point will we accept the fact that we are all not Tier One Operators and these things are threat management tools, not just toys we use at the range. If you're so damn good that you never make mistakes and you can use a 1911 with no safeties, then learn how to shoot a gun that sets an example for the rest of us mear mortals.

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    While I agree with much of the above, I think it is important to state that not everyone in the community advocated for the 1911 trigger in a striker-fired pistol. Dagga Boy is a great example who made many cogent arguments, backed up by experience, of why (for example) LEM was an ideal action for threat management. That discussion drove many, including me, to try -- and then embrace -- LEM. While those guns were brought to market for reasons other than drop safety, those actions are very safe in terms of drops.

    I think it is also important to state that there were other advocates of DA/SA, including TLG and EL. TLG specifically wrote about his concern that trigger travel distance, not trigger weight, played a role in "avoidable" NDs. Beretta and S&W both offered DAO guns as did SIG with the P250 and HK still does. So there must be at least a perceived market for people who want a trigger whose travel distance can help with safety. The existence of the Gadget and its success in our community shows, at least, some awareness of the liabilities of a short-travel trigger on a pistol.

    It is also fair to say that, as the quoted section states, that many people want(ed) a 1911 trigger on a striker-fired pistol. But it is also important to remember that most people today have no understanding of the trade-offs involved in pistol design -- or even basic physics. They want a gun that is easy to use and safe just like their phone -- the iGun. It is up to manufacturers to give customers what they want while still providing products that are safe. Manufacturers are supposed to be the experts, not the customers.
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  10. #10
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical View Post
    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    The race has been on to see which manufacturer could build a gun with the shortest and lightest trigger on a striker fired gun for years. Between the aftermarket kits for striker fired guns to the updates to current guns from major manufacturers and new guns hitting the market, it is pretty clear that the customers want as close to a 1911 trigger as they can get, but with no manual safety. The whole culture has gone to the bullshit bravado of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude" mentality. We have developed an acceptance for basically single action guns with no safeties. I have been around long enough to remember when a certain striker fired gun hit the market and most of the top guys in the community thought it was ridiculous to have a trigger that short and light with no safety. But here we are, about 30 years later and all anyone wants is a short light trigger on a striker fired a gun. Not to mention all the people that complain about the trigger tab.

    When the 320 hit the market, everyone was raving about how great the trigger was and the fact that it did not have a trigger tab. Here we have a fully cocked gun, with no external safety of any kind, and we thought it was great. Sales went through the roof and almost nobody said, hey wait a minute, physics are at play here, what kind of weird magic are they using to keep that thing from firing when it hits the ground. Every other manufacturer that builds a striker fired gun has some kind of trigger tab that keeps the gun from firing when it gets dropped. And what was our answer? "Shut up man, keep your booger hook off the bang switch dude".

    At what point will we accept the fact that we are all not Tier One Operators and these things are threat management tools, not just toys we use at the range. If you're so damn good that you never make mistakes and you can use a 1911 with no safeties, then learn how to shoot a gun that sets an example for the rest of us mear mortals.

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    Having done the firearms training thing for 40 years, first with revolvers (my first love), then TDA guns and now striker fired, I concur and couldn't have said it any better. Once my personal situation changes a PX4 is in my future.
    Scott
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