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Thread: Semi-Auto Triggers: market trends, choices, and consequences

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I am trying to remember the last time anyone won an argument on Pistol-Forum, or for that matter the internet. If I could have a few mulligans, it would be to have stopped before things reached the win/lose stage, because generally everyone loses then, and the exchange of information happened well before.


    You of course are correct. I probably should have stated it something like dialog stops instead of win/lose. The way I wrote it does more to mention the end of dialog as to end it in a snarky way. Or as Tom would say... just hit the ignore button.

    GJM,

    Thanks for the gentle reminder. We all need it from time to time. Obviously that includes me.
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
    I blog at www.JustOneGun.wordpress.com I'm not selling anything but ideas.
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  2. #302
    My take on the whole Sig debacle: Sig screwed up the most when they first took the "there is nothing to see here, move along" approach to handling the 320 problem. They have since changed course. It will be interesting to see how this all hashes out, and what effect, if any, it has on the US Military adoption of the 320. By most accounts it's a very decent gun.

    As far as user demands for "easy triggers" and market forces shaping what gets used... it's pretty much going to happen that way. People want what they want. If they don't get what the want, they modify things, sometimes to the detriment of safe operation.

    Same goes for manufacturers trying to one up the last guy with the "next best thing, ever"... Trying to "out Glock the Glock" and striving for some improvement ( cheaper, lighter, faster, etc). Compromises are made everywhere. Even Glock does it (BTF issues, anyone?). I think DAO/LEM/DAK type triggers are probably safer for something like LE use, and people can become very proficient with them. They probably are not the best "gamer" guns, for the same reasons they are good for LE use. I really liked the 9mm P-30 I handled some.. but not enough to ditch my Glocks. Decide what your uses are, and use what works best for you. But don't assume your ideals fit everyone, and every situation.

    I'm personally heavily invested in 9mm Glocks now, for various reasons: Simple design and easy to work on, finish is resistant to the elements and lackluster maintenance schedules, hold a good amount of bullets, lightweight, accurate enough, magazines-sights-holsters-accessories are readily available (with lots of good options), etc. The type of trigger/action was somewhat of an afterthought, other than I had carried a DAO Kel-Tec P-11 for a while, and then a couple SA XD's... and I knew the the Glock trigger was closer to the XD than the DAO P-11 (Which served me well, for such a cheap gun). I had some issues with the XD's (note to self: don't be a beta tester for the newest guns/gear) and was looking for something that better fit my uses and desires. Begrudgingly, I tried a G19, and found I shot it well, and the rest is history. In the same time frame, I tried a CZ P-01, and a 1911, as a daily carry, but always came back around to the Glock.

    I can tell you, working a DAO J-frame trigger will certainly not do anything but help you, when it comes to learning trigger control. Learning to shoot various guns certainly has merit.
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  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    You of course are correct. I probably should have stated it something like dialog stops instead of win/lose. The way I wrote it does more to mention the end of dialog as to end it in a snarky way. Or as Tom would say... just hit the ignore button.

    GJM,

    Thanks for the gentle reminder. We all need it from time to time. Obviously that includes me.

    We have all been there. I don't think the forum ignore button is the right answer, but rather to realize that after you/me/whoever has made the same point two or three times, whether right or wrong, the point doesn't get clarified any more on the fourth or fifth attempt.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    We have all been there. I don't think the forum ignore button is the right answer, but rather to realize that after you/me/whoever has made the same point two or three times, whether right or wrong, the point doesn't get clarified any more on the fourth or fifth attempt.


    Again you are correct. But for me I've found that one of the biggest problems, at least in my neck of the police instructor world, was coming up with a theory and using it as fact. Taking those theories and putting them back into the model we originally used is the next step to avoid that. Continuing down that path level by level, at least in my opinion, is the best way to cut through biases, laziness, fixed opinion, etc. The problem is that after we go down a few levels it's very hard to just put the theory back into the original idea. It's so minute we can't just think it through that way. We have to use intellect and discussion to see a range of possibilities. That's sort of what I mean earlier when I talked about just proving a theory is false. That's much easier at a deep level than proving every little thing is right.

    I also understand, and should not get so frustrated, when people just say, "JOG you're giving me a headache. Just stop."
    What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
    I blog at www.JustOneGun.wordpress.com I'm not selling anything but ideas.
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  5. #305
    STAFF Tom_Jones's Avatar
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    Not to belabor any of further his, but I'd suggest that if anyone has decided that they are going to "fill pages" every time someone posts something they disagree with, that not only are they not having fun or learning anything, but that they are are making the forum suck for everyone else.

    I'm personally also of the opinion that multiple (page filling ) posts saying essentially the exact same thing doesn't strengthen an argument, but rather weakens it. The great thing about the internet/PF is that once you post your carefully worded, well reasoned, subtly nuanced argument it's there forever and isn't going anywhere. And posting essentially the same thing over and over again just makes a person seem uninteresting and their future posts less likely to be read because it's assumed to be just more of the same. And if you don't want people to read your posts, why bother posting in the first place?

    Perhaps my perspective is unique, perhaps not. But it's not unusual for one loud mouth (I'm absolutely not referring to anyone in particular with this statement) to essentially ruin a forum with their tireless efforts to never be wrong or to let someone else be wrong.

    Also, if any thing is "so internet" it's being dismissive in response to dismissiveness. It's entirely possible to forego the ego gratifying snark, and just ignore it.

    How many days till PFestivus? Is it going to suck (again!) this year?
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  6. #306
    Site Supporter StraitR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustOneGun View Post
    Actually both my replies were spot on as to why I believe you are wrong in your assessment and why I believe I'm correct. Agreeing to disagree is fair enough for both of us. But trying to win an argument with a dismissive argument is intellectually dishonest or lazy. It's so....internet.
    Frankly, I don't give a fuck what you think, or anyone who agrees with you for that matter. Your post was weak and noncommittal, filled with blanket statements covered by ambiguity that left you just enough room to squeak out when pressed. Your first reply already had a stench of superiority and I wasn't going to tell you anything you weren't already prepared to counter by continuing to wear out your e.x.p.e.r.i.e.n.c.e. keys. So, what's the gain in debating the subject? I told you we can agree to disagree, but that wasn't good enough, you had to get your licks in. You even mention agreeing to disagree is "fair enough for both of us" above, but you're still pressing. I tried to move on because I still don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. If you believe you are, then you're way out in left field from what I'm trying to say. Why go through all the motions to get us on the same page, only to come to the same conclusion, we don't agree. But you just can't drop it.
    Craig
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  7. #307
    STAFF Tom_Jones's Avatar
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    PFestivus came early this year. Yay.
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