Long guns and drop safety

[Backspin]

In light of the P320 drop safe controversy, I want to ask about long guns and their lack of absolute drop safety.

John Hearne has brought up the Remington 870. I know some will say the AR15 platform is not drop safe due to the floating firing pin. But people still carry these weapons on duty and use them for home defense. Many use these guns in competition and for hunting purposes.

So why do some people call for a ban of the 320 in competition, but no one calls for a ban on 870's?

I'm genuinely curious, and I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere in one of the ongoing threads.

[GJM]

There are a half dozen questions embedded within your post. Leaving aside that people do not compete with 870 shotguns in USPSA, there is a USPSA rule, 8.1.2.4, that says competitors must demonstrate all factory safeties are functional. I am not sure how someone does that with a 320 right now.

Outside of USPSA, there are a bunch of people carrying and storing long guns condition 3, until the time they are expecting to shoot.

[Backspin]

My post refers to long guns in general. I was using the 870 as a well established example. Sure, someone wouldn't use a shotgun for USPSA, but I'm sure there are people who have shot an 870 in 3-gun.

When was that USPSA rule implemented? It's been about 10 years since I've shot a club USPSA match, but I've never had to demonstrate my gun's safeties still worked prior to shooting a match.

[GJM]

I am not sure when that rule was implemented but it is currently in effect, as you can see at USPSA.org.

From a rules standpoint, there is a distinction between a firearm with a safety device that is not functioning, and a firearm like a CZ Shadow that does not have a firing block safety. I have never been asked to show that all internal safety devices are functioning, but with the 320 and its publicity, that could change.

[breakingtime91]

I have seen ar 15s dropped from unop of vehicles, buildings, and ran over. None discharged. I hve also been behind two MATVs that were hit by 80-120 lb IEDs, none of their rifles discharged from the pressure or being banged around. One rifle was basically destroyed from being thrown but it didn't fire.

Hope that helps.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the biggest difference is I know the free float firing pin weapon is a drop hazard. My 870 is stored in an in-wall cabinet were it could, in theory, fall out when I open the door or fumble it to pick it up or whatever. So, I store it without a round in the chamber. Same in my patrol car, where it could be subjected to great force in a crash.

Long guns are a "I had time to get it" gun and taking the time to chamber a round is negligible. Once your using it, it's probably slung (or should be) and/or you've got two hands on it. It's a lot harder to drop than a handgun at that point. Then when you're going to unsling it, you put it back in "cruiser ready".

A handgun is often a "holy shit I need a gun in my hand right now" weapon and is expected to be carried ready to fire. Time matters, you may have one hand busy fighting someone, injured, etc. Empty chamber carry is unacceptable in a duty handgun, completely acceptable in a duty long gun. Drop safety with a slung weapon is less of a concern.

I can't answer your questions about competition, well outside my wheel house.

[txdpd]

Long arms are longer, which makes it a little harder to drop one and have it pointed at your noggin or chest. Not saying that getting shot in the foot, ankle or leg won't cause some serious quality of life issues but that's not as likely to be an end of life issue.

There's also a lot more muzzle control with long arms and slings can be used.

[Dagga Boy]

I am going to try to be calm with this, as we have lost all sense of logical at this point with Sig defense syndrome.

How do guns get dropped? What happens when they do? Here is the issue in this discussion...nobody ever claimed these guns were drop safe. Nobody advertised this. So, how do most un modified long guns need to be dropped to discharge. Generally in straight vertical orientation and likely directly on the muzzle. It is really hard to get them to do this. Where is the muzzle if by some freakish chance you can get the gun into that orientation? The problem is many drop tests are set up for drops to test for the types of discharges these types of guns face, and not the reality of what actually happens.

Now, how do Handguns fall? How do they generally land when dropped? How will mass orient that gun falling? Based on most damage I have seen on a ton of dropped Handguns, it is often the rear slide area. Where is the muzzle oriented on impact? Is that dangerous? Is that dangerous if dropped in a typical training or professional environment?

To me the big gigantic fat hairy issue is that the SIG P320 seems to have an easily replicable issue when dropped in a common manner and a discharge of live ammunition into a direction that is extremely hazardous. Meanwhile, everyone is pointing to testing of dropping guns that tend to not be how they discharge because systems have been built to a test and not reality, and they discharge in a way in which the muzzle is usually in a direction not likely to strike anyone.

During my LE career at my agency we dealt with two dropped gun discharges that were both with SIG's. Because of SIG's factory armorers training where we were told the guns could not discharge when dropped, the officers were blamed for improper use of the decocking lever without any real proof other than "it is the only explanation" based on the training provided by SIG on their weapons systems. In this case I actually do think improper decocking was the issue. Now, in the same time period I saw exactly zero discharges of dropped long guns to include Remington 870's, 700's, AR's and M16's, Colt SMG's, and the entire HK line of roller locked guns in multiple varieties and calibers, and Benelli's. Never even heard of a case in a very large metropolitan area.

So, why the issue....basic common sense. The issue is not that the P320 will discharge in some obscure bizarre, weird, unlikely scenario, but that it will discharge in a very likely real life manner and in a way that is extremely dangerous.

[JHC]

I am going to try to be calm with this, as we have lost all sense of logical at this point with Sig defense syndrome.

How do guns get dropped? What happens when they do? Here is the issue in this discussion...nobody ever claimed these guns were drop safe. Nobody advertised this. So, how do most un modified long guns need to be dropped to discharge. Generally in straight vertical orientation and likely directly on the muzzle. It is really hard to get them to do this. Where is the muzzle if by some freakish chance you can get the gun into that orientation? The problem is many drop tests are set up for drops to test for the types of discharges these types of guns face, and not the reality of what actually happens.

Now, how do Handguns fall? How do they generally land when dropped? How will mass orient that gun falling? Based on most damage I have seen on a ton of dropped Handguns, it is often the rear slide area. Where is the muzzle oriented on impact? Is that dangerous? Is that dangerous if dropped in a typical training or professional environment?

To me the big gigantic fat hairy issue is that the SIG P320 seems to have an easily replicable issue when dropped in a common manner and a discharge of live ammunition into a direction that is extremely hazardous. Meanwhile, everyone is pointing to testing of dropping guns that tend to not be how they discharge because systems have been built to a test and not reality, and they discharge in a way in which the muzzle is usually in a direction not likely to strike anyone.

During my LE career at my agency we dealt with two dropped gun discharges that were both with SIG's. Because of SIG's factory armorers training where we were told the guns could not discharge when dropped, the officers were blamed for improper use of the decocking lever without any real proof other than "it is the only explanation" based on the training provided by SIG on their weapons systems. In this case I actually do think improper decocking was the issue. Now, in the same time period I saw exactly zero discharges of dropped long guns to include Remington 870's, 700's, AR's and M16's, Colt SMG's, and the entire HK line of roller locked guns in multiple varieties and calibers, and Benelli's. Never even heard of a case in a very large metropolitan area.

So, why the issue....basic common sense. The issue is not that the P320 will discharge in some obscure bizarre, weird, unlikely scenario, but that it will discharge in a very likely real life manner and in a way that is extremely dangerous.

You aren't the poster Facebook deserves, but you are the poster Facebook needs.

[Rex G]

In light of the P320 drop safe controversy, I want to ask about long guns and their lack of absolute drop safety.

John Hearne has brought up the Remington 870. I know some will say the AR15 platform is not drop safe due to the floating firing pin. But people still carry these weapons on duty and use them for home defense. Many use these guns in competition and for hunting purposes.

So why do some people call for a ban of the 320 in competition, but no one calls for a ban on 870's?

I'm genuinely curious, and I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere in one of the ongoing threads.

I am comfortably OK with the non-drop-safe 870, because I can so easily unlock the action while moving. Nobody taught me to do it as a default "safety," but if I have to move quickly, I can opt to unlock the action, and pull the slide to the rear a bit, which disconnects the firing linkage. If a target is acquired, I simply close the action to "off-safe" the weapon. Ths is street duty, not competition.

I moved back to Benelli late last year, or very early this year, and lost the ability to so easily open the action. This has not caused me anxiety. Perhaps this is because I usually move with the shotgun muzzle-down, so if I drop it, the muzzle is not normally going to be pointed at anyone, and the weapon does not fall very far before it first hits the ground. The dropped P320 is dangerous when its muzzle is pointed at an upward diagonal angle, and has plenty of time to build speed if dropped from shoulder or chest height.