AAR - Frank Proctor Rifle/Pistol Class - July 2017 - Mount Carrol, IL

[Sal Picante]

Facility: Mt Carroll, IL is formerly, "The Site", which became Blackwater Training, etc... Jim Kauber now manages/runs the facility. As such, various instructors/classes roll through the facility.

There is lodging a bit removed from the range, catered, etc. Very clean. I like staying there - nice to just drive 5 minutes from the range, grill a steak, chug some beers, etc.

Mt Carroll is also in the middle of nowhere. Stay at the lodge...


People: ~12-15 people of various skill levels, mostly intermediate.

Gear: 3-4 Berettas, a few Carry Optics guys, a variety of guns. Got to finger-bang a CZ PM-10 or whatever it is. I ran my carry 92G from the Keepers holster (1/2 through the day I tucked my shirt in to stop gouging my stomach.)

I shot my DSA AR with an Aimpoint. Damn: comps make a huge different on the AR's! So easy to shoot Frank's setup with his own design of a muzzle device.


Impressions: I had high expectations for the class, mostly due to Frank's reputation and his videos (which I watched before the class). The format was 1 day with rifle, 1 day with pistol. With this many people, it pretty much guarantees a bunch of "line work".

The portion on the rifle centered around grip, building the position from standing, being able to provide solid points of contact for the rifle. There were some insights here, but nothing that I'd call earth shattering. Frank tried to give us a lot of information, but since the course was fairly unstructured, there wasn't much of a curriculum or a format that he could riff off of.

The portion with the pistol centered a lot on the grip again and how to visually drive the gun while targeting. After the presentation, it pretty much opened up as a "self-guided practice session".

Now, at this point, people are probably saying that "Pepperoni is a writing another hit-piece!" or something, but, that's not quite it...

I've shot a lot, I can practice on a range until I'm blue in the face, etc. When I take a class I'm really looking for a some insights and challenges and I suspect that I've outgrown what can be offered in a general-format class at this point. (even though I still think I'm a shitty rifle shooter...) I wouldn't want another person to attend, after a hefty bill for gas/lodging/ammo/tuition and be underwhelmed.

Talking to Frank about some of his beliefs on vision/processing speed/etc. was fascinating, but the discussions were exceedingly short because he had to managed the rest of the class. I wish I would've saved that $$ and spent it on some good 1-on-1 time with him in Alabama or something.

Some things I didn't like:

• I harp on most classes about written notes: I really like having written notes/handout since it allows me to look back on topics and think them through again.
• The unstructured nature of the class and presentation was touch to stomach... People tune out REALLY fast when standing around.

http://instagram.com/p/BXNaqR8gEDU/

[JHC]

The 1 on 2 for two days I bought from Frank for one of my son's and I before he left for Infantry OSUT was a crazy great value. I can appreciate your point.

[Permethrin]

thanks for the aar

two questions...

1 - Do you feel it was worth your time and money?
2 - Who (type of person) would you recommend the class to?

[Dave Williams]

Have you ever been to Rogers?

[BJJ]

Les,
I feel like a lot of class reviews are puff pieces that only say positive things. I, and I suspect others, really appreciate hearing about the good and the bad from someone of your shooting ability. There are a number of trainers who I have not chosen to train with due to instructor/student ratios that seem only geared towards making the instructor money. I'm not saying that is the case for Proctor specifically.

Please keep the honest feedback coming.

[Sal Picante]

thanks for the aar

two questions...

2 - Who (type of person) would you recommend the class to?

1.) Do you feel it was worth your time and money? No. Not at all. Sadly and regretfully saying that.

2.) Who (type of person) would you recommend the class to?
This is the problem with a lot of firearms training: who should take these classes? (Lemme go broad, then narrow it down)

In my opinion (and feel free to debate me here...):

Beginners need and crave structure - you need a lesson plan, a format, a curriculum. The more specific the better, even at the expense of things like "historical perspective", "doctrine", "sport-vs-street" debates, "master-level insights", etc... I get why places teach a 4-count drawstroke. It gets the beginners drawing safely to the target, repeatably.

Intermediates need rep-time behind the gun to start framing up their observations. They need some guided practice/drills and feedback.

High-Level guys need someone to push them/critiques/etc. This is more akin to coaching and is best done in mostly 1-on-1 or very small group classes (2-3 people).

Speaking specifically: The class was too disorganized for beginners, and didn't offer guidance for the intermediate guys. Sure Frank setup a few drills, but it wasn't anything really repeatable and there was a distinct lack of accountability (if you miss, you should be challenged through that...)

Honestly, in that specific format, I wouldn't recommend the class to anyone. And it f'n kills me to say that...


I dislike comparisons, but I feel like I need to underscore it with a few:
Paul Sharp's class on building the grip is good. It focuses very much on repeatable, guided aspects of shooting, presented with constant coaching for a group. He talks very little about other contexts. He just presents the information clearly, to the point and we get to shooting.

Roger's Shooting School is the perfect example of a solid intermediate level instruction: specific, high-rep, high-volume. There is constant feed back (you hit or miss) and coaching from your peers.

Bill Drummond or Ben Stoeger's competition classes give high-level guys a lot of feedback and insight, challenge them to do change. I'd argue that Ben straddles the intermediate/master divide a bit more and that Bill is def. more at the high-level shooter's speed.

[Sal Picante]

Have you ever been to Rogers?

Not sure what this has to do with Frank Proctor's class, but in case it helps validate my opinion somehow, I'll bite:

Yes.

I earned my Advanced Score/pin back in March of 2012. I shot a 105, 105, 97, 112, 118 my days there.

[Sal Picante]

Les,
I feel like a lot of class reviews are puff pieces that only say positive things. I, and I suspect others, really appreciate hearing about the good and the bad from someone of your shooting ability. There are a number of trainers who I have not chosen to train with due to instructor/student ratios that seem only geared towards making the instructor money. I'm not saying that is the case for Proctor specifically.

Please keep the honest feedback coming.

Thanks - I feel it is important to talk about the good and the bad. Pistol-Forum is the best, most authentic forum for general handgun usage I know about...

I've thought about this phenomenon a lot: I think it is people who don't really know any better reviewing. I mean, imagine I've been shooting for a few months and I review a handgun. What is that person going to say? "So awesome! Comes with so many grip adapters! Goes bang ALL THE TIME (for the 500 rounds I shot out of it...)"

I think the reviews, in general, lack credibility/specificity/nuance.

I'll go one further - if everyone's reviews are positive, does that provide the instructor with any incentive to change?

I mean I tell Paul Sharp he's ugly all the time ... I'm beginning to wonder if he bothers to read the reviews, tho...

[Chance B.]

I mean I tell Paul Sharp he's ugly all the time ... I'm beginning to wonder if he bothers to read the reviews, tho...

[Dave Williams]

Not sure what this has to do with Frank Proctor's class

I've read your two reviews where you've been dissatisfied and was going to recommend Rogers.