The sense of entitlement runs very deep in the swamp. No one in private industry lasts five minutes after it is revealed they threatened to wear a wire to record their bosses' boss to try and get him removed. Why should high level staffers at the FBI be any different?
Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer.
I’ll buy what you are selling if you can tell me one thing. What was the antecedent federal crime that Trump was suspected of committing that warranted a special prosecutor?Originally Posted by GuanoLoco
I’m asking that because the DOJ regulations under which Rosenstein made the appointment require (a) a factual basis for believing that a federal crime worthy of investigation or prosecution has been committed; (b) a conflict of interest so significant that the Justice Department is unable to investigate this suspected crime in the normal course; and (c) an articulation of the factual basis for the criminal investigation — i.e., the investigation of specified federal crimes — which shapes the boundaries of the special counsel’s jurisdiction. Otherwise, we would live in a police state, and I garandamntee you that you don’t want the FBI snooping around your affairs just in case you committed a crime.
I don’t like Trump. I generally think he’s idiot and I long for the day that a major cardiovascular event gives us President Pence. However, I’ve not seen or heard shit about evidence that Trump was criminally complicit in Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. Moreover, none of those convictions that you listed were associated with the conflict of interest provision (b) above, so they could have easily been handled by the presiding US Attorney’s Office (in fact, some were) without the need for a special prosecutor. So, until you can at least answer (a) above, there is no way that a special prosecutor was ever justified to investigate Trump in the first place. That means that he can continue to Twitter fart all over Jeff Sessions and go on continue being his own worst enemy in the court of public opinion without obstructing justice.
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
So you agree that there was Russian interference in the 2016 election.
I don’t claim to follow all this super-close - but there there seems to be a decent chance the Trump campaign was doing things that it shouldn’t. I also doubt Trump has any moral or ethical reservation about doing, well, most anything to win: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...linton/561350/
Trump SHOULD have been dropping the hammer on the Russians, but instead has run interference for Putin on multiple occasions. Hmmm. WHY? There is always a why with this guy. Trump has a history of doing business in Russia, and Russian is in the business of compromising people - especially people who lust for attention, adulation, sex, money and power. Frankly Trump seems an easy mark for Putins strongest game.
I’d be surprised if there weren’t any NUMBER of justifications for the Mueller investigation - pick your favorite.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-25-2018 at 12:03 AM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
For someone not following this super-close you seem to have a lot of options to express about obstruction of justice. Again, very simple - what crime was committed? Tell me the federal statue that you think was violated. Don’t tell me to pick my favorite because I can’t think of one. You need to show that the Trump campaign directly received something of value (and information alone is not considered something of value) or offered a quid pro quo in exchange for Russian illegal activity before a criminal threshold is even approached. If you tell me there was a criminal conspiracy to receive dirt on Hillary then I’ll tell you that you’re crazy per this excellent explanation:
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...s-criminal-too
Of course, I agree there was Russian interference. However, we don’t open criminal investigations into people and we especially don’t go appointing special prosecutors because someone may have done business in Russia or because they seem to like Putin. That is called a campaign platform; Trump spent the entire election season telling us how much he admired Putin - publicly! And America still elected him. So, feel free to open a counter intelligence investigation into those matters if you think that a publicly stated campaign platform that you find disagreeable is some form of espionage. However, special counsels are not used for counter intelligence investigations because they require a factual bases for a specific crime. So, do you think that Trump committed treason, accepted illegal campaign contributions from Russia, etc.?The Russians setting up the meeting said their government had evidence of criminal conduct connected to the Clinton Foundation soliciting illegal donations. According to witnesses, Trump Jr. asked for the promised evidence but Russian attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya said she did not have it and only wanted to talk about Magnitsky Act limitations on Russian adoptions. The meeting ended shortly thereafter.
If the Russians had evidence of criminal conduct by Hillary Clinton, her campaign or her family foundation, the Trump campaign had every reason to want to know about it. That is precisely what the Clinton campaign spent millions to do, talking to Russians and other foreigners investigating Trump. Indeed, under this interpretation of federal election laws, Clinton and her surrogates would be equally guilty in using a former foreign spy to gather information on Trump from foreign sources, including Russians.
Consider the implications of what the critics are suggesting. It would mean treating information as a form of political contribution as no different from money, for purposes of a criminal charge, even information about criminal acts by an election candidate. That would mean administrations could prosecute political opponents for merely attending meetings with foreign individuals to discuss the criminal conduct of a sitting American president. Democratic politicians could be charged if they reviewed evidence of alleged bribes or quid pro quos by Trump.
Listen, I get it. You don’t like Trump. Neither do I. But stop being so eager to criminalize your distaste for him. That meal gets really bitter when it comes back up at a later date...
Last edited by Sensei; 09-25-2018 at 01:03 AM.
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
How many of those indictments are for DJT colluding with Russia to influence the ejection cycle in 2016?
Did Russia try to influence our elections? Pretty much since waaaaay before we were born. Every single damned one. Did China, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Timbuktu? Damn right they did. And damned right they will continue to do so. Just as the USA influences elections around the world on a day to day basis.
If the Russians did hack the election process in 2016; that’s not on DJT. That’s on the admin who claimed it was impossible and didn’t stop it.
The question is did DJT knowingly work with Russia to gain an unfair advantage to win the election. No evidence there of. Technically, the DNC is the only one who colluded. They paid a foreign national to dig up campaign dirt on DJT, which they then used during the campaign and after. Hmmmmmmm.
I’m like Sensei to a degree. I think the DJT persona is crass, childish whatever you want to call it. However, to date I agree with him on most policy and IMO that superseded my feelings. Would I like to have some charismatic Ron Reagan instead of DJT, damned right, but that wasn’t in the cards. Am I going to set precedent that it’s ok to subvert the elected president because feelings: Hell no! Mueller is the same as Ford IMO. Smear, smear, smear till we get control and can subvert policies that we don’t like more efficiently. That tide ALWAYS turns and just as importantly, it turns in totally uncontrollable ways. I don’t want that for my kids. I don’t want them living in the same shithole I left and IMO this is how you start digging a shithole.
Actually, I don’t need to show doodly to you in an internet “prove to me” game. This doesn’t mean that I am wrong, nor does it mean that you are right. What I did do was a little research on your claim. IANAL but I found this. I’m simply not seeing the prerequisite for creating a Special Counsel that you claim.
The President and his campaign should be operating without impropriety, or even the appearance of impropriety. We are way, way past the appearance of impropriety. The whle thing STINKS, and if appointment of a Special Council is required to get to the truth, I’m good with it.§ 600.1 Grounds for appointing a Special Counsel.
The Attorney General, or in cases in which the Attorney General is recused, the Acting Attorney General, will appoint a Special Counsel when he or she determines that criminal investigation of a person or matter is warranted and -
(a) That investigation or prosecution of that person or matter by a United States Attorney's Office or litigating Division of the Department of Justice would present a conflict of interest for the Department or other extraordinary circumstances; and
(b) That under the circumstances, it would be in the public interest to appoint an outside Special Counsel to assume responsibility for the matter.
I think there is a better than average chance that Trump himself, and even more likely his lackeys at his direction, or with his passive his knowledge, did any number of stupid and quite possibly illegal things. If Mueller comes up dry, frankly I will be HAPPIER - this isn’t something I wish for our country. On the other hand there is way too much crap that has gone on to just look the other way and pretend there is not a considerable amount of smoke and wonder about the source.
What smoke/crap? The incessant lying, smearing, undermining, support for Putin/Russia, attacks on the news, attacks on individuals, manipulation of public opinion with blatant falsehoods and position reversals of conenience, fawning over the blindly loyal then attacking any who might cooperate with law enfocrement, you name it. WTH? Is this the US of A or are we now living in some dystopian alternate reality? WHY is Trump so terrified? WHY is Trump willing to act the way he does? I don’t know the answer, but I’m betting there is good reason.
Trump’s behavior is neither acceptable nor good for the country and the sooner it ends the better off we will be. I would RATHER it end in an election loss, but something has been done that warants more imediate action then I’m good with that too. No public figure needs to be above the law, or even emboldened by inaction or deliberate impediment of the rule of law - not Trump, Hillary or anyone.
Out of time.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
What you cited from Cornell law is the statute creating the special counsel provision with the DOJ. What I’m referring to is the Attorney General’s Guidelines and Standards for initiation of a criminal investigation. There are actually multiple standards depend on the type of investigation. For an assessment (physical surveillance, interviews, etc.) we only needed authorized purpose that was reviewed by supervisors every so often - essentially no standard. The next step up is preliminary investigations which require an allegation or information that a federal crime has been committed. However, a full investigation such as a special prosecutor or impanelling a special grand jury requires a factual basis that a crime has been committed.
Those are the rules. Changing them mid game because you don’t like the teams playing is a bad idea.
Last edited by Sensei; 09-25-2018 at 12:12 PM.
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
I don't claim to know the rules at this level.
I also do not think that it is fair to say that the appointment of the Special Council was baseless.
Without looking it all back up, there is relatively undisputed evidence of the POTENTIAL for "collusion" (inappropriate, unreported and quite possibly illegal contact/collaboration) based on an actual meeting with the Russians, and the interactions of Roger Stone, a Sr. Trump Advisor with Guccifer 2.0 (Russion Intelligence), Assange/WikiLeaks, Hacks on the DNC, timing of disclosures, etc. that does more than raise my eyebrow. IIRC there were also foreign donations to the Trump inauguration and an inability to account for the excessive funding relative to expenditure. I'll bet there is a whole bunch more that I can't rattle off the top of my head or that has simply not yet been publicly disclosed by Mueller.
Again, I'm not fully up to speed but there is an AWFUL lot of distasteful stuff going on. I think it is also quite reasonable to ask whether DJT has been compromised.
I'd like to hear some explanation other than the stream of blatant lies, misdirection & propaganda spewing from DJT and his sycophantic minions.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
This a link for an older example of what SENSEI is talking about:
https://www.justice.gov/archives/ag/...e-and-domestic
If you really want to get into the weeds:
https://vault.fbi.gov/FBI%20Domestic...Guide%20(DIOG)
Deeper than I care to go, but an interesting item in the first link: https://www.justice.gov/archives/ag/...e-and-domestic
The investigation clearly spans both foreign intelligence and US citizens.Investigations involving foreign intelligence, foreign counterintelligence and international terrorism matters are the subject of separate guidelines
More Info: Wikipedia: Special Counsel investigation (2017–present)
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
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